How loud do you listen?

[Irvrobinson]

Sitting here with my el cheapo c-weighted sound level meter next to me, I see that when listening to Bob James (Joy Ride), rather loudly to my ears, I'm averaging about 85db, and I'm seeing a few peaks in the 95db range. Standing one meter from the speakers I saw peaks regularly at about 100db.

At the other end of the musical spectrum, with Mozart Symphony #24, I found a very nice listening level, something like what I hear at a concert, averaged about 76db, and I saw peaks in mid-80s, maybe a peak at 90db here and there.

Am I listening loudly compared to you folks, or not so much?

 

[TLS Guy]

Sitting here with my el cheapo c-weighted sound level meter next to me, I see that when listening to Bob James (Joy Ride), rather loudly to my ears, I'm averaging about 85db, and I'm seeing a few peaks in the 95db range. Standing one meter from the speakers I saw peaks regularly at about 100db.

At the other end of the musical spectrum, with Mozart Symphony #24, I found a very nice listening level, something like what I hear at a concert, averaged about 76db, and I saw peaks in mid-80s, maybe a peak at 90db here and there.

Am I listening loudly compared to you folks, or not so much?

I have no idea the Bob James, but the peaks on the Mozart seem about right, but I would have thought the average level might be a bit lower in the sixties, so may be you have some thermal compression in your speakers, or our amps are running out of gas.

However an average is hard to gauge when looking at a meter that will not average.

 

[Lulimet]

75-80 db for me.

 

[avnetguy]

Depends on a few things, type of music, time of day/night, mood, etc but generally I'll be averaging in the 85db range. For late night easy listening (when the noise floor is lower) my average is probably down 5db.

Steve

 

[Irvrobinson]

I have no idea the Bob James, but the peaks on the Mozart seem about right, but I would have thought the average level might be a bit lower in the sixties, so may be you have some thermal compression in your speakers, or our amps are running out of gas.

However an average is hard to gauge when looking at a meter that will not average.

Bob James does well-recorded contemporary jazz. Audiophile elevator music.

It seems unlikely I have thermal compression in my speakers. Revel Salon 2s. Lots of drivers and I use a sub.

The amps are running out of gas at these volume levels? 4x250w/ch into 4 ohms (active bi-amp), but maybe. Assuming 86db/2,83v at 1 meter, they should be good for at least 107db, probably more on peaks, if I did the arithmetic correctly.

More likely is that the music doesn't have a lot of dynamic range.

Agree on the meter, I was averaging by eye.

 

[walter duque]

Bob James does well-recorded contemporary jazz. Audiophile elevator music.

It seems unlikely I have thermal compression in my speakers. Revel Salon 2s. Lots of drivers and I use a sub.

The amps are running out of gas at these volume levels? 4x250w/ch into 4 ohms (active bi-amp), but maybe. Assuming 86db/2,83v at 1 meter, they should be good for at least 107db, probably more on peaks, if I did the arithmetic correctly.

More likely is that the music doesn't have a lot of dynamic range.

Agree on the meter, I was averaging by eye.

What amp are you using?

 

[PENG]

Sitting here with my el cheapo c-weighted sound level meter next to me, I see that when listening to Bob James (Joy Ride), rather loudly to my ears, I'm averaging about 85db, and I'm seeing a few peaks in the 95db range. Standing one meter from the speakers I saw peaks regularly at about 100db.

At the other end of the musical spectrum, with Mozart Symphony #24, I found a very nice listening level, something like what I hear at a concert, averaged about 76db, and I saw peaks in mid-80s, maybe a peak at 90db here and there.

Am I listening loudly compared to you folks, or not so much?

Going by eyes/brains I have to guess for concertos and symphonies average would be in the low 70's. I actually took the meter with me to the last live classical concert. It was dark but I didn't see any peak over 90's from where I sat. It was a rather small orchestra though.

 

[PENG]

Bob James does well-recorded contemporary jazz. Audiophile elevator music.

It seems unlikely I have thermal compression in my speakers. Revel Salon 2s. Lots of drivers and I use a sub.

The amps are running out of gas at these volume levels? 4x250w/ch into 4 ohms (active bi-amp), but maybe. Assuming 86db/2,83v at 1 meter, they should be good for at least 107db, probably more on peaks, if I did the arithmetic correctly.

More likely is that the music doesn't have a lot of dynamic range.

Agree on the meter, I was averaging by eye.

Just a side note, IMHO I would not trust active bi-amp if I had first class speakers such as yours. However, if you like to tune things to sound good to you that is a different story and I can understand why you do it. I prefer to let the speakers reproduce the sound faithfully without my own intervention.

 

[Irvrobinson]

What amp are you using?

For the moment I'm using twin Mark Levinson 334 stereo amps. I'm swapping them out for an ATI AT3005 next week.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Just a side note, IMHO I would not trust active bi-amp if I had first class speakers such as yours. However, if you like to tune things to sound good to you that is a different story and I can understand why you do it. I prefer to let the speakers reproduce the sound faithfully without my own intervention.

A few of my friends so agree with you. They were appalled when I bought the Velodyne, and think my use of its high-pass filter is a travesty of such proportions I should have my Salon 2s confiscated by Voecks himself, lose my userid on Audiogon forever, and be forced to listen to a Bose system.

I do run the feeds to midrange-tweeter sections full range; I only filter the feeds to the woofers. I tried running the Salon 2s in single wire mode from the Velodyne high-pass output, and I thought I could easily hear a degradation, much to my surprise.

A few things are very obvious to me:

1. The system sounds better on everything with the DD18 Plus operating.

2. Running the Salon 2 woofers with the 80Hz high-pass feed sounds better than running the Salon 2 woofers full-range. I've tried full-range operation several times now and it makes the low end too bloated. Ugh.

So I'm stuck. Addicted to a sub, but need a high-pass filter.

 

[TLS Guy]

Bob James does well-recorded contemporary jazz. Audiophile elevator music.

It seems unlikely I have thermal compression in my speakers. Revel Salon 2s. Lots of drivers and I use a sub.

The amps are running out of gas at these volume levels? 4x250w/ch into 4 ohms (active bi-amp), but maybe. Assuming 86db/2,83v at 1 meter, they should be good for at least 107db, probably more on peaks, if I did the arithmetic correctly.

More likely is that the music doesn't have a lot of dynamic range.

Agree on the meter, I was averaging by eye.

Amp power may be a factor. I have 750 watts on the mains, 1500 total to the mains, I have about 4 to 5 db greater sensitivity. Those factors could be significant. Also in the disc I'm mentioning, which is 5.1 master HD, I have another 500 watts for the center channel, 200 watts for the surrounds and 400 watts for the backs for 7.1 discs. That is a lot of horse power, especially in 7.1. I have no sub, but the mains have the LFE signal mixed in, and can achieve high spl in the last two octaves. Below 80 Hz sensitivity is 93 db, which is very high for the last octave. So there is a lot of low end spl available. Long term power handling available for the last two octaves is 600 watts, peak power available is 1000 watts. So that is why a sub as such is not required.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Amp power may be a factor. I have 750 watts on the mains, 1500 total to the mains, I have about 4 to 5 db greater sensitivity. Those factors could be significant. Also in the disc I'm mentioning, which is 5.1 master HD, I have another 500 watts for the center channel, 200 watts for the surrounds and 400 watts for the backs for 7.1 discs. That is a lot of horse power, especially in 7.1. I have no sub, but the mains have the LFE signal mixed in, and can achieve high spl in the last two octaves. Below 80 Hz sensitivity is 93 db, which is very high for the last octave. So there is a lot of low end spl available. Long term power handling available for the last two octaves is 600 watts, peak power available is 1000 watts. So that is why a sub as such is not required.

I looked at the photos of your system. Very impressive. I like having guys like you around. As with ATDG, I feel so practical and thrifty by comparison.

 

[TLS Guy]

I looked at the photos of your system. Very impressive. I like having guys like you around. As with ATDG, I feel so practical and thrifty by comparison.

Thank you! I'm actually going to back the way you are using your sub and HPF.

I suspect it does have a bloated low end.

This goes to the heart of why I recommend using active crossovers in the bass where possible. If you do use passive not putting a crossover below 350 Hz at least.

You won't find the problem in standard measurements. The problem goes to Q.

You can tell from published measurements, that those bass driver are three eight ohm units in parallel, giving an impedance of 3 ohms over their operating range, except for the tuning peak.

Now the values of the two series inductors to make the fourth order low pass filter are going to be very high value. Even with iron cores there will be a long length of wire. Even if you use very high cost inductors there is going to be a DC resistance of 0.5 to 1 ohm range likely closer to 1 ohm.

So the inductors resistance will be a significant proportion of the DC resistance of the speakers.

When you put a a series resistance that big in the woofer drive, you raise driver Q drastically. Total Q can never be lower than driver Q.

The result is a high Q bass, which to me and apparently to you sounds bloated.

I have played with this in the past and you can not get a nice tight bass with this approach.

This does not bother a lot of listeners, in fact some expect it, but it drives me nuts.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Just a side note, IMHO I would not trust active bi-amp if I had first class speakers such as yours. However, if you like to tune things to sound good to you that is a different story and I can understand why you do it. I prefer to let the speakers reproduce the sound faithfully without my own intervention.

I should also mention, PENG, that I'm knowingly optimizing the locations of the Salon 2s for imaging, and I acknowledge I was paying a price in in-room bass response. Obviously, the Salon 2s have excellent bass response on their own, but the locations in my room to get smooth response were unacceptable. I didn't want to treat the room to solve the problem; I didn't want to make our family room look like a recording studio. I placed the sub for best in-room bass response, so I'm trying to get the best of both worlds.

 

[walter duque]

For the moment I'm using twin Mark Levinson 334 stereo amps. I'm swapping them out for an ATI AT3005 next week.

These are some great amps and speakers you have. IMO you need more power. At about 10 feet I get over 110 db out of mine. At 1 meter by my calculation about 130 db. I listened to the Salons a while back with 2000 watt MC mono blocks and they sounded fantastic. I would say one if not the best sounding speaker that I have ever auditioned.

 

[Irvrobinson]

These are some great amps and speakers you have. IMO you need more power. At about 10 feet I get over 110 db out of mine. At 1 meter by my calculation about 130 db. I listened to the Salons a while back with 2000 watt MC mono blocks and they sounded fantastic. I would say one if not the best sounding speaker that I have ever auditioned.

Thanks. The amps are very nice, but their SNR isn't competitive anymore with some other amps, like the ATI AT3000s. I'm not in the mood to buy new ML stuff that is competitive, which is why I'm switching.

You are listening at *much* louder levels than I do. Amazing that your speakers can pull that off.

 

[walter duque]

Thanks. The amps are very nice, but their SNR isn't competitive anymore with some other amps, like the ATI AT3000s. I'm not in the mood to buy new ML stuff that is competitive, which is why I'm switching.

You are listening at *much* louder levels than I do. Amazing that your speakers can pull that off.

I was just checking out your amps, these are nice. They must have some incredible headroom.

 

[GranteedEV]

When you put a a series resistance that big in the woofer drive, you raise driver Q drastically. Total Q can never be lower than driver Q.

Hey, I've read Q defined as two different things WRT speakers, could you clarify for me?

A) Q is the shape of the resonance peak - wouldn't a transmission line give a flatter impedance peak than free air??

B) Q is the shape of the frequency response - isn't the goal of a Linkwitz Transform filter to reduce Q electrically? That's what I would think. That with active EQ you can have any Q you want, with the caveat that too small a box will cause thermal compression and clipping when equalized.

I'm pretty sure that with active circuits and EQ then it's not an issue of contention.

 

[avnetguy]

At the other end of the musical spectrum, with Mozart Symphony #24, I found a very nice listening level, something like what I hear at a concert, averaged about 76db, and I saw peaks in mid-80s, maybe a peak at 90db here and there.

Just out of curiousity, what do you think the power output from your amps would be for the above SPL levels (76, 85 and 90) for your room and the 86db sensitivity speakers?

Steve

 

[Irvrobinson]

Just out of curiousity, what do you think the power output from your amps would be for the above SPL levels (76, 85 and 90) for your room and the 86db sensitivity speakers?

Steve

I could only guess, which isn't of much use.