How About 10 Gauge Electrical Wire for Speakers?

[mtrycrafts]

Well, I guess I do have a lot to learn, but I think in a blind test you would have a hard time telling which wire is which. What about the small diameter wire in the crossover and even finer wire probably like .004 diameter or less that is in the tweeter voice coil? Doesn't that add resistance? I was just sharing my experiences with this inexpensive tweak. There is also a lot of experimentation out there with magnet wire with a lot of good results. I would like to try 12 gage magnet wire at some point in the future but at this itime I find myself going back to bellwire or cat5 since it is available locally. Just my 20 cents per foot worth. Have you guys actually tried it and if so,what were your impressions?

Actually, there was a blind test many years ago, called the Greenhill article:
Greenhill, Larry 'Speaker Cables: Can you Hear the Difference?' Stereo Review, Aug 83, pg 46-51.


And, yes, listeners did hear an audible difference between 24ga wire, about what bell wire is, and 16ga or 12ga. Even after level matching.

What good results are there with 'magnet' wire? What ga is it? Copper?

If you want to alter sound reproduction, you should concentrate on room acoustics and speakers, period, not wire.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Wow, You guys are brutal.

No, just trying to be objective and that can hurt those who are believers in magic.

I thought these forums were supposed be fun and informative.

Oh, it is fun. Aren't you having fun yet?

I was merely stating something I experienced. Not snake oil, but something that to my ears actually performs rather well compared to much costlier products.

OK. My experience is that when I place a steel pipe in a 5 gallon bucket of water is that the water bends the steel pipe. That is what mt eyes are telling me. And, when I pull it out, the air straightens it out. That is what my eyes are telling me.
Perhaps, our senses are fooled? You bet they are and can be.

I have been in this hobby for a long time and I know what I hear no matter what the measurements are.

Ah, so your long experience gives you immunity from being fooled by your senses? Doesn't stand up in the court of science.
Why do you think the gold standard is a double blind testing protocol to minimize/eliminate human bias and sensory flaws? And, yes, even old pros can make mistakes and be fooled by unreliable perceptions.

You didn't answer my question as to whether or not you tried it and what your results were.

No, we didn't perhaps we don't need to place our hand on a hot stove to know

All I learned was that I need more education because what I am hearing can't be possible.

No, just unreliable and that senses and perceptions can be fooled unless bias controlled.

As I stated, I replied to a question to offer an alternative to the status quo.

Is that something like bringing in psychics to solve crimes, homeopathic medications, psychic healers?

 

[mtrycrafts]

... I stripped the end long and ran it through both sets of terminals so I could eliminate the straps which by some is thought to make an improvement also.

Interesting. The straps most likely has less resistance than that bell wire for that 2: distance.

... It did tame some of the high frequency hash or grain I was experiencing.

So, you are trying to use wire as tone controls?
Better to treat your room or better speakers as thin wirer is minimally effective.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...If anyone was crazy enough to read this far... Thanks. My speech is done.

Rick

Call me crazy, and TLS guy

 

[cl35m]

Dear Yettitheman, Thanks for your response. I actually am using it for the hf and lf. I stripped the end long and ran it through both sets of terminals so I could eliminate the straps which by some is thought to make an improvement also. You are correct in understanding my post. It did tame some of the high frequency hash or grain I was experiencing. As far as low frequencies go, I'm not missing any lows as of yet. The sound just seems to have better seperation and clarity to me. Who knows, I may switch back after a while, thats the fun of this hobby. I had thought of putting resistors in as jumpers to reduce the mid/high output to let the bass catch up but don't know if it's possible.What are you using for wire and have you ever tried solid core if you're not using it already? Thanks for your respectfull response. You were correct when you say its what sound good to yourself not what everyone else thinks you should think sounds good. Sound is highly subjective. I've always found it fascinating reading reviews where the reviewer states how a speaker is reproducing everything exactly as it was recorded when most likely they have never heard the actual performance. You don't have to agree with everybody but its fun to hear and discuss different views, thats what makes it interesting. Tom

You're on the right track with solid core wire. I love it. When you get a chance, try some 14, 12 or even 10 ga solid core copper romex.

10 ga is my favorite.

 

[j_garcia]

There is some good info in this thread (debunking), otherwise I would have to nominate it for DUMBEST THREAD EVER.

 

[Tommytutor]

Thanks for all the information. I was making a suggestion based on my experience and would never have even considered trying it myself if I hadn't read about the experiences of others who had very good to excellent results using solid conductor small gage copper wire. I have no doubt that TLS knows what he is talking about as do others that have responded to my suggestion from a scientific point of view. I do have some grasp of the concept of resistance,circuit load,etc.,from what I've learned doing some home wiring. Not an expert by any means. Some have tried much higher gage wire than I would attempt to try with reportedly good results. In my situation, trying this cheap tweek seemed to improve my listening experience although I have much more listening to do to convince myself of this. Yes, I guess I am using wire as tone controls since I listen in the pure direct mode which defeats the use of the tone controls. The gage of the wire I am using is 20 awg with approx. an eight foot run per side. Unless someone wants to try this out and report back their opinions, good or bad, I see no reason to keep this going unless they want to. I thank everyone for their input.

 

[Midcow2]

yes, but I think barb wire is even better!

Thanks for all the information. I was making a suggestion based on my experience and would never have even considered trying it myself if I hadn't read about the experiences of others who had very good to excellent results using solid conductor small gage copper wire. I have no doubt that TLS knows what he is talking about as do others that have responded to my suggestion from a scientific point of view. I do have some grasp of the concept of resistance,circuit load,etc.,from what I've learned doing some home wiring. Not an expert by any means. Some have tried much higher gage wire than I would attempt to try with reportedly good results. In my situation, trying this cheap tweek seemed to improve my listening experience although I have much more listening to do to convince myself of this. Yes, I guess I am using wire as tone controls since I listen in the pure direct mode which defeats the use of the tone controls. The gage of the wire I am using is 20 awg with approx. an eight foot run per side. Unless someone wants to try this out and report back their opinions, good or bad, I see no reason to keep this going unless they want to. I thank everyone for their input.

You are right, bell wire is great I used to use lantern batteries and buzzers as a kid. But next time you come out to my ranch (right now it is just a lot backing up to the natural forest with a separtion barb wire fence in back. Since the strands of barb wire are on wooden posts they are insulated and I didn't have my roll of bell wire so barb wire it is to connect the speakers. Unbelievable sound I have a perpetual motion generator to power the system; keeps the cost down. Hey I figure if you can defeat the laws of electricity with bell wire , then barb wire would be even better; actually eve though steel has higher resisitance it is bigger guage so I don't have even the 0.1904 ohm resistance drop you experience over 8 ft of bell wire, which you are correct is normally 20 gauge. remember the wire resistance doubles over the length because you need two wires to complete the circuit. 20 gauge is 0.0119 per foot times 8 feet times 2 = 0.1904 on an 8 ohm nominal impedance speaker (0.1904 /(0.1904 +8 )) =2.3% of pwoer lost on the wire. The recommended percentage is less than 5% so actually you would be okay with Bell wire for an 8 ft run. However steel resistance is 1.0 x 10-7
Resistivity (Ω-m) at 20 °C while copper is 1.72 x 10-8 Resistivity (Ω-m) at 20 °C so steel has 5.81 times the resistance of copper, but barb wire isapproximately 10 gauge so the resistance of barb wire ( 10 gauge steel) is 0.006856 so at a 8 ft rub the resistance is .1097 ohns or (.01097/ (.01097_8))=1.35% power loss MUCH better than bell wire

Bottom line don't try to use Bell wire. Don't try to defeat the laws of physics!


This was more than the thread deserved

Later,

MidCow2

 

[j_garcia]

Try moving your speakers a few inches or a +/- 10 degrees. Trust me, this will have more of an impact than any speaker wire will. If you use an AWG that is too small for the length of wire, then you are attenuating the signal, but doing so seems to more or less completely defeat the purpose to me.

I have said this previously in this thread: I have used solid wire that was $3/foot boutique wire and compared it to standard Monster Cable, both bare - no connectors. The result: no meaningful difference.

 

[Tommytutor]

Actually, there was a blind test many years ago, called the Greenhill article:
Greenhill, Larry 'Speaker Cables: Can you Hear the Difference?' Stereo Review, Aug 83, pg 46-51.


And, yes, listeners did hear an audible difference between 24ga wire, about what bell wire is, and 16ga or 12ga. Even after level matching.

What good results are there with 'magnet' wire? What ga is it? Copper?

If you want to alter sound reproduction, you should concentrate on room acoustics and speakers, period, not wire.

The product I am refering to is Anticable speaker wire and is solid core 10 or 12 awg copper. It is not really magnet wire which is varnished or shellac coated copper wire used in motor windings, speaker voice coils, etc. Anticable uses a different coating on their product which is one of their proprietary features. I am not endorsing this product but it seems to rate very highly with people who have purchased it and left their testimonials on their site. It is something I would like to try but don't want to lay out the money right now even though they are not that expensive, hence the bell wire, cat5 and others. Please don't beat me up on this. I am just answering your question as best I can. I can assure you that I don't by into snake oil as some have implied. I am not selling a product. If I can try stuff on the cheap to see if there is some merit to other peoples claims, I will occasionally do so. Thats what these forums are about are'nt they? Sorry for the venting. Thanks for the info on the review above. I will see if I can find it in some archive unless you know where I can find it.

 

[lsiberian]

The product I am refering to is Anticable speaker wire and is solid core 10 or 12 awg copper. It is not really magnet wire which is varnished or shellac coated copper wire used in motor windings, speaker voice coils, etc. Anticable uses a different coating on their product which is one of their proprietary features. I am not endorsing this product but it seems to rate very highly with people who have purchased it and left their testimonials on their site. It is something I would like to try but don't want to lay out the money right now even though they are not that expensive, hence the bell wire, cat5 and others. Please don't beat me up on this. I am just answering your question as best I can. I can assure you that I don't by into snake oil as some have implied. I am not selling a product. If I can try stuff on the cheap to see if there is some merit to other peoples claims, I will occasionally do so. Thats what these forums are about are'nt they? Sorry for the venting. Thanks for the info on the review above. I will see if I can find it in some archive unless you know where I can find it.

We are not here to beat you up we are here to help you learn what really matters in sound. There are a lot of myths and wasted energies on areas that have very little impact on performance if you go by the normal standards. Wire has very little impact. Why do you think we still use the same wire for networking and other things that we already have. That's because it's not the wires that are the issues. It's the other things. How about modding your speakers to make them better? That would be a project that would give you enormous satisfaction and results. Heck if you are decent with wood working then you could even build your own speakers.

Acoustic treatments would be another area you could go wild in. Use your experimentation for some real benefits. Seriously you could really improve your system with the energy aimed in a better direction. IMO. That's why we have managers at work to help us do the things to make the company run. In the same way we want to help you do the things to make your system amazing. We all want you to enjoy the best sound system possible in your budget. We aren't here to pick on you. We are here to help you. I don't get paid to come here and chime in. I do it because I want others to enjoy what I enjoy. Good sound.

Have a good evening.

 

[Tommytutor]

Thanks for your input. Your response was very informative and helpful as were most of the others who posted. Room treatments and equipment upgrades are out of the question right now due to economics and WAF. I have tSc TST3 speakers and after the recent review of their model under this one, the manufacturer stated that they may be looking into ways to improve on some of the issues that I may be experiencing also. I guess I'll watch these forums to see if anything shows up about this. Thanks again for all the responses.

 

[j_garcia]

In the chain of things that will have an effect on what you hear, speaker wire is the dirt that the toem pole is sitting on. What I mean is that to make useful changes to your system, speaker wire isn't one of the first places to look.

We are trying to help, since that is the goal of most Audioholics: get the best sound out of what you have within your budget.

 

[Midcow2]

Speakers rule!

In the chain of things that will have an effect on what you hear, speaker wire is the dirt that the toem pole is sitting on. What I mean is that to make useful changes to your system, speaker wire isn't one of the first places to look.

We are trying to help, since that is the goal of most Audioholics: get the best sound out of what you have within your budget.

Factoid- the bottom man on the totem pole is the most important; most people assume the opposite
The most important change to you you system's sound is the speakers.

Did I tell you the most important part of your system's sound in the speakers.


Later MidCow2,

P.S. I agree with j_garcia, unless you are an audio video salesperson

 

[Seth=L]

Die Thread

Moderators will likely be closing this soon.

 

[jamie2112]

Not until I post after you Seth.......Why not use 8 gauge or 6 even.....

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Anticable uses a different coating on their product which is one of their proprietary features. I am not endorsing this product but it seems to rate very highly with people who have purchased it and left their testimonials on their site. ....

You must be very careful with 'testimonials.' Who knows its validity, is merit, or anything. Yes, products do sell on the basis of testimonials, and that is a problem, not only in audio but in all consumerland. Would you buy into homeopathic meds because of testimonials, or the services of a psychic, etc.

 

[Tommytutor]

Thanks for your input. I do read testimonials and you do have to be careful with what you read. I do tend to trust peoples opinions more so than what a manufacturer claims a product can do. Thats why I read these forums to learn other peoples experiences and learn some science also like I have on this thread. The thinking behind the thinner insulation on the wire is that what is on the wire can act like a capacitor and charge and discharge and affect the sound. The opinion being that no insulation would be the most ideal. I don't need any responses to this as it is not my claim. I guess this gets into the same area as raising cables off the floor,etc.

I know that in this industry as most others,whatever you want to spend, no matter how much, there is always someone out there that makes it. In my case all I wanted to risk was $5 on some wire and thats what I did. As far as homeopathic medicines,some are being recommended by physicians now such as fish oil, vitamin c and e. Seers I don't buy into.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... As far as homeopathic medicines,some are being recommended by physicians now such as fish oil, vitamin c and e. Seers I don't buy into.

Fish oil, vitamin c and e, are not homeopathic, unless it is diluted as a homeopathic medicine is, to such an extent that there is no medicine it it.

http://www.randi.org/jr/200509/090205alley.html#5

http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/a-kind-of-magic/

As to the efficacy of the vitamins, many studies have shown that they are not effective as claimed. Fish oil may help those at risk for hart disease, so would eating fish

As to the insulation and wire lifters, yes, they are in the same category of marketing It is not about that $5 you experimented with, nor $100 if that were the case, it is the whole issue of experimenting with known snake oils; it is still snake oil at the end.