How About 10 Gauge Electrical Wire for Speakers?

[ahender]

Hi:

I started this thread because I read another thread here that pointed me to a review of speaker wires done by Audioholics.

In that review they were recommending speaker wire that cost $6-7 a foot.

There was also a mention of solid-core wire (I think).

Hense my asking if regular old electrical wire would work for long runs.

I guess $6 a foot for wire if OK for someone spending $30,000 for speakers.

For me, even $1.00 a foot is more than I want to spend.

alan

 

[OttoMatic]

Hi ahender,

I don't know if your original question was ever answered...

But, yeah, you can use regular ol' Romex-type wire if you want. It should work fine to transmit your signal from amp to speaker.

Also, I think I've bought Carol brand 12 gauge wire at Home Depot for $.55/foot. That was a while ago, and I think copper prices have gone up, but that's also an option. It's usually on a big spool and they will measure and cut it for you.

Good luck!

 

[TLS Guy]

I gave my opinion based on what I heard and you gave your opinion. End of story.[/QUOTE]

It's not an opinion, it is an auditory hallucination.

 

[EJ1]

I hate these endless cable debates.

If you can hear a difference (or buying for cosmetics), and can justify the price, go for it!
If you can't, don't!

 

[Tommytutor]

If you want to try something inexpensive with results that may surprise you, try bellwire. Yes, you read that right, ordinary solid core copper, light gage doorbell wire, red and white thin insulation. I've been switching out Monster Cable with the flux tube in the center also MIT Terminator biwire and also a house brand biwire with silver coated strands for the high frequency side of the crossover and find the bellwire to outperform the other wire configurations at way less cost. Stereophile Magazine even had it in their recommended components list. It may still be on it. The differences are subtle in my opinion and experiences but hey, its a cheap thing to try and if it doesn't work out for you, you can always put in a doorbell. The most noteable thing I noticed was improved clarity to piano notes, you know, the ones that you expect to disort and usually do. If anyone tries it or has tried it, what were your experiences? I know this is a hot topic but let's keep it fun and see what others have experienced.

 

[TLS Guy]

If you want to try something inexpensive with results that may surprise you, try bellwire. Yes, you read that right, ordinary solid core copper, light gage doorbell wire, red and white thin insulation. I've been switching out Monster Cable with the flux tube in the center also MIT Terminator biwire and also a house brand biwire with silver coated strands for the high frequency side of the crossover and find the bellwire to outperform the other wire configurations at way less cost. Stereophile Magazine even had it in their recommended components list. It may still be on it. The differences are subtle in my opinion and experiences but hey, its a cheap thing to try and if it doesn't work out for you, you can always put in a doorbell. The most noteable thing I noticed was improved clarity to piano notes, you know, the ones that you expect to disort and usually do. If anyone tries it or has tried it, what were your experiences? I know this is a hot topic but let's keep it fun and see what others have experienced.

Nonsense! Bell wire is lousy speaker cable. It has far too high a resistance for speaker wire. Sure it will change the sound, but because it is lousy cable for speakers. The resistance will be so high that it will change the bass tuning and change the Q of the whole system. There are a lot of folks over at Stereophile who earn a DSM psychiatric diagnosis.

 

[Votrax]

Bellwire! That's good for about 500mA!

 

[cl35m]

I wired my doorbell with 10 ga solid core romex and noticed a substantial improvement in clarity, detail, definition, and bass

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Stereophile Magazine even had it in their recommended components list. ....

You know the adage, garbage in, garbage out
That is a worthless list.

 

[lsiberian]

If you want to try something inexpensive with results that may surprise you, try bellwire. Yes, you read that right, ordinary solid core copper, light gage doorbell wire, red and white thin insulation. I've been switching out Monster Cable with the flux tube in the center also MIT Terminator biwire and also a house brand biwire with silver coated strands for the high frequency side of the crossover and find the bellwire to outperform the other wire configurations at way less cost. Stereophile Magazine even had it in their recommended components list. It may still be on it. The differences are subtle in my opinion and experiences but hey, its a cheap thing to try and if it doesn't work out for you, you can always put in a doorbell. The most noteable thing I noticed was improved clarity to piano notes, you know, the ones that you expect to disort and usually do. If anyone tries it or has tried it, what were your experiences? I know this is a hot topic but let's keep it fun and see what others have experienced.

LMAO! That is ridiculous. Seriously, take a physics course. There you will learn about Ohm's law. Once you understand Ohm's law then you can make much better speaker wire choices. If you get the right wire then resistance is futile!

 

[Tommytutor]

Well, I guess I do have a lot to learn, but I think in a blind test you would have a hard time telling which wire is which. What about the small diameter wire in the crossover and even finer wire probably like .004 diameter or less that is in the tweeter voice coil? Doesn't that add resistance? I was just sharing my experiences with this inexpensive tweak. There is also a lot of experimentation out there with magnet wire with a lot of good results. I would like to try 12 gage magnet wire at some point in the future but at this itime I find myself going back to bellwire or cat5 since it is available locally. Just my 20 cents per foot worth. Have you guys actually tried it and if so,what were your impressions?

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, I guess I do have a lot to learn, but I think in a blind test you would have a hard time telling which wire is which. What about the small diameter wire in the crossover and even finer wire probably like .004 diameter or less that is in the tweeter voice coil? Doesn't that add resistance? I was just sharing my experiences with this inexpensive tweak. There is also a lot of experimentation out there with magnet wire with a lot of good results. I would like to try 12 gage magnet wire at some point in the future but at this itime I find myself going back to bellwire or cat5 since it is available locally. Just my 20 cents per foot worth. Have you guys actually tried it and if so,what were your impressions?

Randomly wandering around trying lunatic ideas not based on science is no way to increase yours or anybody's understanding of the issues.

Yes you really would be better off breaking out some physics books.

Now, the issue is resistance per foot. The longer the cable the bigger the diameter of the conductor needs to be. The total resistance of the cable, and that means shorting one end of the cable together, and measuring the resistance across the conductors the other end, is how it is measured. And yes, that means you need to buy a meter. Now the resistance of that cable should be no greater than than 0.1 to 0.2 of the DC resistance across the terminals of the speaker. The resistance of a speaker cable is really the only parameter of significance.

Now in a crossover, the internal wiring is short compared to the cable. The resistance of the wire in the inductors (coils) is taken into account in the design of the crossover. Budget speakers do have coils constructed out of wire that is too small a gauge, very often. Better speakers will have coils made from 16 gauge wire at least.

Talking about cat5 or magnetic wire is pointless rambling.

Now this is not a forum where members have much tolerance for this sort of anecdotal musing. That is why I'm still here.

Before you come up with anymore of your suggestions, research it from a physics based standpoint, and give a rational explanation for your recommendation based on sound science.

If you can't, please post on another forum, and don't clutter ours with detritus.

 

[sparky77]

The best thing to do is to check out the main page of this forum and read through all the articles, and tips and tricks before asking questions, it saves a lot of debate. Check out this article, I think it should answer most or your questions.

 

[Tommytutor]

Wow, You guys are brutal. I thought these forums were supposed be fun and informative. I was merely stating something I experienced. Not snake oil, but something that to my ears actually performs rather well compared to much costlier products. There are many measurements you have to take with a grain of salt in this industry and many bogus claims also. If I didn't perceive that my suggestion made a difference at least to me, I guarantee I wouldn't have posted it. I have been in this hobby for a long time and I know what I hear no matter what the measurements are. I wrote in to offer an alternative to 10 gage romex which I thought some people would be interested in trying. You didn't answer my question as to whether or not you tried it and what your results were. All I learned was that I need more education because what I am hearing can't be possible. As I stated, I replied to a question to offer an alternative to the status quo. I didn't come on here to be told how poorly educated I am. You're right, maybe this is the wrong forum to be on. I apologize for taking your time.

 

[yettitheman]

If you want to try something inexpensive with results that may surprise you, try bellwire. Yes, you read that right, ordinary solid core copper, light gage doorbell wire, red and white thin insulation. I've been switching out Monster Cable with the flux tube in the center also MIT Terminator biwire and also a house brand biwire with silver coated strands for the high frequency side of the crossover and find the bellwire to outperform the other wire configurations at way less cost. Stereophile Magazine even had it in their recommended components list. It may still be on it. The differences are subtle in my opinion and experiences but hey, its a cheap thing to try and if it doesn't work out for you, you can always put in a doorbell. The most noteable thing I noticed was improved clarity to piano notes, you know, the ones that you expect to disort and usually do. If anyone tries it or has tried it, what were your experiences? I know this is a hot topic but let's keep it fun and see what others have experienced.

If what I read was correct, you said you are (basically) using the Doorbell wire for HF? Well, I know you would notice a difference.

When you say piano notes and distortion, do you notice they are clearer or more rounded or softer? Does the sound "mellow out?"

IF YOU SAY YES.. then your answer is the doorbell wire!
Why you ask?

Because you are (get this) LIMITING the information by virtue of increased resistance in the wire traveling down the signal path to the corresponding driver.
The mellowness, the softness, is actually the wire coloring the sound. Now, if you like it, that's fine. People like tube amps, whatever floats the boat I say.

It's the wire itself limiting current and power to the driver; it does not receive as much electricity, hence, it does not play as loud or play as pronounced and "harsh."
You might try A/B'ing doorbell cable and a segment of AM Antenna Loop cable to see if there is a difference there. You probably won't notice a difference.

 

[Tommytutor]

Dear Yettitheman, Thanks for your response. I actually am using it for the hf and lf. I stripped the end long and ran it through both sets of terminals so I could eliminate the straps which by some is thought to make an improvement also. You are correct in understanding my post. It did tame some of the high frequency hash or grain I was experiencing. As far as low frequencies go, I'm not missing any lows as of yet. The sound just seems to have better seperation and clarity to me. Who knows, I may switch back after a while, thats the fun of this hobby. I had thought of putting resistors in as jumpers to reduce the mid/high output to let the bass catch up but don't know if it's possible.What are you using for wire and have you ever tried solid core if you're not using it already? Thanks for your respectfull response. You were correct when you say its what sound good to yourself not what everyone else thinks you should think sounds good. Sound is highly subjective. I've always found it fascinating reading reviews where the reviewer states how a speaker is reproducing everything exactly as it was recorded when most likely they have never heard the actual performance. You don't have to agree with everybody but its fun to hear and discuss different views, thats what makes it interesting. Tom

 

[yettitheman]

Dear Yettitheman, Thanks for your response. I actually am using it for the hf and lf. I stripped the end long and ran it through both sets of terminals so I could eliminate the straps which by some is thought to make an improvement also. You are correct in understanding my post. It did tame some of the high frequency hash or grain I was experiencing. As far as low frequencies go, I'm not missing any lows as of yet. The sound just seems to have better seperation and clarity to me. Who knows, I may switch back after a while, thats the fun of this hobby. I had thought of putting resistors in as jumpers to reduce the mid/high output to let the bass catch up but don't know if it's possible.What are you using for wire and have you ever tried solid core if you're not using it already? Thanks for your respectfull response. You were correct when you say its what sound good to yourself not what everyone else thinks you should think sounds good. Sound is highly subjective. I've always found it fascinating reading reviews where the reviewer states how a speaker is reproducing everything exactly as it was recorded when most likely they have never heard the actual performance. You don't have to agree with everybody but its fun to hear and discuss different views, thats what makes it interesting. Tom

I'm using 16 AWG STP wire. If not for the clarity, then at least I feel better using beefy wire that will not act like a safety fuse through intense musical passages.

 

[Rickster71]

Tommy, don't get discouraged. This forum has many knowledgeable people that are always willing to help. TLS Guy is one of them.
Don't waste a golden opportunity to learn the facts, and never let one's ego hinder the learning process.

I'm trying to think of a way to explain this...

I'm not sure what your profession is?
So, let's say for example, you're a chef with many years experience. A new guy comes into the kitchen and says, "Did you know that cold tap water boils faster than hot tap water?"
An experienced chef would know that it is untrue, and it speaks volumes about the new guys knowledge and experience level.

There are sound scientific, and professional reasons why copper wire comes in the many sizes, and with the different insulations that it does. It's all based on years of testing to find the right application for each type of wire. Don't waste your time trying to reinvent the wheel, or battling the laws of physics.

Please listen to what TLS Guy has to offer, he's very knowledgeable and always willing to help.

Don't get upset. Get back up, brush yourself off, and get on your way to becoming a true Audioholic.
If anyone was crazy enough to read this far... Thanks. My speech is done.

Rick

 

[emorphien]

I wired my doorbell with 10 ga solid core romex and noticed a substantial improvement in clarity, detail, definition, and bass

I can feel my doorbell in the basement!

 

[lsiberian]

Wow, You guys are brutal. I thought these forums were supposed be fun and informative. I was merely stating something I experienced. Not snake oil, but something that to my ears actually performs rather well compared to much costlier products. There are many measurements you have to take with a grain of salt in this industry and many bogus claims also. If I didn't perceive that my suggestion made a difference at least to me, I guarantee I wouldn't have posted it. I have been in this hobby for a long time and I know what I hear no matter what the measurements are. I wrote in to offer an alternative to 10 gage romex which I thought some people would be interested in trying. You didn't answer my question as to whether or not you tried it and what your results were. All I learned was that I need more education because what I am hearing can't be possible. As I stated, I replied to a question to offer an alternative to the status quo. I didn't come on here to be told how poorly educated I am. You're right, maybe this is the wrong forum to be on. I apologize for taking your time.

Engineers and Scientists have no choice but to be brutal sometimes. This is certainly not always the case, but many of our decisions are life and death decisions so it's easy for these to translate over to other areas of passion. TLS regularly designs and builds speakers. If he says something there is not grain of salt there is years of experience, Knowledge and Intuition. While philosophically speaking experience is a very valuable premise for argument. I still think it's important to allow reason to guide us especially in areas largely scientific. They physics behind electricity is both simple and complex on a non-calculus level it's fairly simple. You just use ohms law. That's all you really need to know to choose a good wire. In almost every in room case 16gauge wire is sufficient. If you need less resistance I personally prefer bi-wiring because I always have a surplus of 16 gauge cables. But this is only necessary in a few cases. For in wall wiring you can go higher, but overdoing it is not wise IMO. Remember you can always make up for the extra resistance by simply putting great voltage on the circuit. This is done by turning up the volume. Of course it's not a bad idea to make sure you have low resistance on your wire.

If you want to really be good at this hobby a study of physics is a very fun and good idea. I suggest you study all you can about speakers

Oh and welcome to the forum