Hifi system upgrade

paspolc

paspolc

Audioholic Intern
Hello everyone,
I currently have a stereo system like this

Amplifier: Denon Pma600ne
Schiit Loki mini equalizer
Speakers: ELAC DEBUT B6.2
Turntable: Denon Dp300f.
Subwoofer: Mivoc Hype 10 G2

As I am not quite satisfied with the sound performance, I mainly listen to Pink Floyd, U2, Santana, Doors, CCR etc etc, I was thinking of upgrading and replacing the amplifier with a Cambridge Audio Cxa61 or Marantz pm7000n, hoping for a little more brilliant, crispier sound.

What do you think, can you give me some advice?

Thank you and greetings.
Pasquale
 
Eppie

Eppie

Senior Audioholic
Hi and welcome to the forums. Most modern amplifiers have a very flat response, so there typically is very little if any difference in how they sound. Going with more power can improve the dynamic range (how well it handles transients) if you play music very loud but that hinges on several things, like size of the room and your listening distance. The Marantz is rated at 80W into 4 ohms while your Denon is rated at 70W so you are not gaining very much. If it is the sound of the speaker that you are not happy with, then most of the people here will recommend that you look at a different brand or model of speaker, as that will have the greatest impact on the sound characteristics of your system. Elac makes a good speaker, but if you prefer something that would be described as more brilliant and crispier, you might want to look at Klipsch. The Paradigm Prestige 15B is also known to be on the bright side but is a big step up from the Elac cost wise. The choice of amp is more about features and having the power for volume levels you like. The sound characteristics are most heavily influences by the speaker and the room they are in.

On a side note, if you have the speakers facing straight ahead, you might want to try toeing them in towards your listening position as that will affect how they sound as well.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You mean the sound quality is not Crystal Clear now?

And you feel like the bass (from sub) is more than enough?

Either way, it's not the electronics. It's the speakers and subwoofer (and EQ for the Subwoofer).
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Amplifier: Denon Pma600ne
Schiit Loki mini equalizer
Speakers: ELAC DEBUT B6.2
Turntable: Denon Dp300f.
Subwoofer: Mivoc Hype 10 G2
In my opinion, such integrated amps are not cost effective. You may end up paying more and get less, compared to AVRs, but I understand people don't want to use a 7.1 to 11.1 AVR for stereo so the next best thing could be a receiver such as the R-N803.

Yamaha R-N803 Network stereo receiver with Wi-Fi®, Bluetooth®, and MusicCast at Crutchfield

Yamaha R-N803 Smart Receiver Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Unless you are in a small room sitting less than 10 ft from the B6.2 and you don't listen anywhere close to reference level, that small and cheap Denon integrated seems margin at best for the Debut B6.2 that has relatively low sensitivity and impedance.

Again, you can pay a lot more for the PM7000N or the CXA61 just because they are so called integrated amps, but the Debut B6.2 probably need more juice to do their best, depending on your distance, and listening habits.
 
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paspolc

paspolc

Audioholic Intern
Thanks to all for reply, very helpful.

As far as Paragdim Prestige 15b are concerned, i took a look at them, they are really beautiful, but way out of my budget, and also would not be really easy to get here in Italy.

My room is about 28 square meters ( should be around 300 sq.ft, i think) and i sit at about 8 ft from the speakers. The volume knob is set at around a quarter.

do you think the denon i own has enough power to drive the elacs?

Thanks
P.
 

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paspolc

paspolc

Audioholic Intern
In my opinion, such integrated amps are not cost effective. You will pay more and get less compared to AVRs, but I understand people don't want to use a 7.1 to 11.1 AVR for stereo so the next best thing could be a receiver such as the R-N803.

Yamaha R-N803 Network stereo receiver with Wi-Fi®, Bluetooth®, and MusicCast at Crutchfield

Yamaha R-N803 Smart Receiver Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Unless you are in a small room sitting less than 10 ft from the B6.2 and you don't listen anywhere close to reference level, that small and cheap Denon integrated seems margin at best for the Debut B6.2 that has relatively low sensitivity and impedance.

Again, you can pay a lot more for the PM7000N or the CXA61 just because they are so called integrated amps, but the Debut B6.2 probably need more juice to do their best, depending on your distance, and listening habits.

I would consider buying an Avr, besides the Yamaha rn803, which by the way is really nice, what else would you suggest?

Would i feel the difference in sound performance between the Denon and the rn803?

Thanks.
P.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
do you think the denon i own has enough power to drive the elacs?

Thanks
P.
Good question but tough to answer without knowing your desired SPL. As an extreme example, even a 10 WPC amplifier could have enough "power to drive your speakers if your desired max. SPL is, say 70 dB at a distance of 8 ft from the speakers.

You cannot go by the volume position at all, though in most cases, if you never turn it up pass 1/4 then you are likely okay.

For a more meaningful assessment, please try the calculator linked below and see what it tells you.

Peak SPL Calculator (homestead.com)

The calculator's sensitivity field is based on 1 W/1 M, whereas the Elac's sensitivity spec is 87 dB/2.83 V/1 M so when you enter it into the calculator, don't use 87 dB but 85.7 dB for better accuracy.

Also, it is better to follow THX standard, that is based on 1 speaker. If you post the results then we can try to answer your question.

FYI, reference level is 85 dB with 20 dB peak so max. peak will be 105 dB, again that's for one speaker so it is very loud, similar to that in a good movie cinema.

WHAT IS THE REFERENCE LEVEL? - THX
 
paspolc

paspolc

Audioholic Intern
Good question but tough to answer without knowing your desired SPL. As an extreme example, even a 10 WPC amplifier could have enough "power to drive your speakers if your desired max. SPL is, say 70 dB at a distance of 8 ft from the speakers.

You cannot go by the volume position at all, though in most cases, if you never turn it up pass 1/4 then you are likely okay.

For a more meaningful assessment, please try the calculator linked below and see what it tells you.

Peak SPL Calculator (homestead.com)

The calculator's sensitivity field is based on 1 W/1 M, whereas the Elac's sensitivity spec is 87 dB/2.83 V/1 M so when you enter it into the calculator, don't use 87 dB but 85.7 dB for better accuracy.

Also, it is better to follow THX standard, that is based on 1 speaker. If you post the results then we can try to answer your question.

FYI, reference level is 85 dB with 20 dB peak so max. peak will be 105 dB, again that's for one speaker so it is very loud, similar to that in a good movie cinema.

WHAT IS THE REFERENCE LEVEL? - THX

These are the results, with one and two speakers, thanks for any friendly advice.

I enclose a clearer picture of my actual speakers set up


P.
 

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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
These are the results, with one and two speakers, thanks for any friendly advice.
P
The results show you can get about 99 dB from 8 feet with just one speaker, or 102 dB if you assume more room gain by using corner placement as you have done. That would seem adequate but it does look marginal, considering the mediocre specs of the PMA600NE:

Power Amplifier Section Rated Power:
45W + 45W (8ohm, 20Hz-20kHz, THD 0.07%)
70W + 70W (4ohm, 1kHz., THD 0.7%) Total Harmonic Distortion .01% (Rated Output –3dB) 8ohm 1kHz

I think the Yamaha R-N803 may do a better job with those speakers overall, but only when you listen "loud". Others may disagree, so stay tune for their opinions.:)

You can always give it a try, just make sure you buy it from an authorized dealer that has a generous return policy.

Yamaha specs:

1620932157483.png


I can't find any bench measurements for the Denon but the Yamaha's bench test results exceeded its specs.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Hard to know what you're dissatisfied with particularly. If only listening at 1/4 volume I'd suspect the amp isn't the issue, altho that's not a particularly powerful amp you have nor particularly sensitive speakers. Knowing more specifics in terms of spl as suggested would be more helpful. Usually I'd just look to different speakers if they aren't sounding well, or perhaps play around with placement some more....but amp I'd change out only if I really needed more power.
 
paspolc

paspolc

Audioholic Intern
Hard to know what you're dissatisfied with particularly. If only listening at 1/4 volume I'd suspect the amp isn't the issue, altho that's not a particularly powerful amp you have nor particularly sensitive speakers. Knowing more specifics in terms of spl as suggested would be more helpful. Usually I'd just look to different speakers if they aren't sounding well, or perhaps play around with placement some more....but amp I'd change out only if I really needed more power.
In fact, i have just moved the speakers away from the wall and angles, pushing them further, trying to find the best placement..
 
Eppie

Eppie

Senior Audioholic
Here are the measurements for the Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2. They are quite capable of playing loud. If you're in an apartment in Italy that may not be possible. How do they sound at higher volumes? According to the review these speakers are already on the bright side as a fair portion of the upper frequencies is above the Estimated In-Room-Response graph. Have a look at the Parametric EQ settings that he has further down. Since you have the Schitt Loki you could try and flatten the response like in the review.

I couldn't find the 8 ohm power rating earlier. 45W/ch is not a whole lot for the sensitivity rating on these speakers, but as mentioned above it depends upon your listening levels. Ideal situation would be to find a stereo shop that would let you try out an AVR or more powerful amp, or has a good return policy. At that seating distance I don't think the speakers will get more bright since you already have them pointed at you.

Keep in mind as well the type of material that you listen to. I also listen to a lot of music from that era, and to be honest the engineering is often lacking in those 70's recordings. Before you decide that it's the hardware, try and find some really well recorded music. Trevor Horn was a great producer, and I love the sound of Thomas Dolby's albums, like Aliens Ate My Buick. Crowded House tends to be produced very well and there are many great sounding jazz albums out there which can reveal the sound qualities in a hi-fi system. If that type of music also seems to be lacking, then it's time to experiment with your gear.
 
paspolc

paspolc

Audioholic Intern
Here are the measurements for the Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2. They are quite capable of playing loud. If you're in an apartment in Italy that may not be possible. How do they sound at higher volumes? According to the review these speakers are already on the bright side as a fair portion of the upper frequencies is above the Estimated In-Room-Response graph. Have a look at the Parametric EQ settings that he has further down. Since you have the Schitt Loki you could try and flatten the response like in the review.

I couldn't find the 8 ohm power rating earlier. 45W/ch is not a whole lot for the sensitivity rating on these speakers, but as mentioned above it depends upon your listening levels. Ideal situation would be to find a stereo shop that would let you try out an AVR or more powerful amp, or has a good return policy. At that seating distance I don't think the speakers will get more bright since you already have them pointed at you.

Keep in mind as well the type of material that you listen to. I also listen to a lot of music from that era, and to be honest the engineering is often lacking in those 70's recordings. Before you decide that it's the hardware, try and find some really well recorded music. Trevor Horn was a great producer, and I love the sound of Thomas Dolby's albums, like Aliens Ate My Buick. Crowded House tends to be produced very well and there are many great sounding jazz albums out there which can reveal the sound qualities in a hi-fi system. If that type of music also seems to be lacking, then it's time to experiment with your gear.

Wow, thanks a lot.
Well, the review is not that bad. I haven't really played them too loud, living in a condo, i've always kept volume at 1/4.

I 'm tempted to try the Yamaha rn803, there are not stereo shops in the area i live, they all shut down . I could make a try with Amazon.

I really appreciate your advices, tks again.
P.
 
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paspolc

paspolc

Audioholic Intern
How about some different speakers instead of a different amp?
Any ideas? The only problem , as i wrote before, is that i wouldn't be able to try them, since all stereo shops in my town shut down, and also in other towns they don't have many choices, at least in this covid situation.


P.s.https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/elac-debut-reference-dbr-62-speaker-review.12232/

meanwhile browsing the site, I found the review of the Elac debut reference dbr62 very encouraging, do you think my amplifier is suitable for driving them?

Thanks
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Any ideas? The only problem , as i wrote before, is that i wouldn't be able to try them, since all stereo shops in my town shut down, and also in other towns they don't have many choices, at least in this covid situation.


P.s.https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/elac-debut-reference-dbr-62-speaker-review.12232/

meanwhile browsing the site, I found the review of the Elac debut reference dbr62 very encouraging, do you think my amplifier is suitable for driving them?

Thanks
The Ref DBR62's impedance/phase angle graphs are similar to that of the B6.2 so my same comments on the B6.2 still apply. Whether it would sound better to you is hard to tell as it depends on your personal preference, though based on measurements it seems like a relatively neutral sounding speaker to me.

Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 Speaker Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

The bottom line is, it is down to your listening habits (how loud, kind if music etc., your room size and distance seem fine) that determines whether those low power amps can drive such speakers to their best.

1620991017150.png
 
paspolc

paspolc

Audioholic Intern
The Ref DBR62 should sound better judging from the measurements, but the impedance/phase angles are no better than that of the B6.2 so my same comments on the B6.2 still apply.

Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 Speaker Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

The bottom line is, it is down to your listening habits (how loud, kind if music etc., your room size and distance seem fine) that determines whether those low power amps can drive such speakers to their best.

View attachment 47563

it means that I will also have to change the amplifier... i ordered the speakers from amazon in the meantime, let's see what happens.the enthusiastic review of Amirm on Audio Science Review pushed me to take them.

Thanks, i'll keep you updated.
P.

P.s. since for next month I have already decided to sell my Denon pma600ne and buy a new amplifier to match the Elac dbr62, can I continue the discussion in this section or should i open a new topic to understand which amplifier to buy? as a first idea I was thinking about the Yamaha R-N803, but the Amirm review on audiosciencereview.com did not convince me, so I am open to all suggestions from you. Thanks a lot.
 
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S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
OP, I am now enjoying unexpected low volume detail, black as coal backgrounds, and superbly managed bass having replaced my 20 plus year old Pre-Pro with a Parasound 2.1 P6 Preamplifier/DAC. From reading your post, it appears this preamp can be integrated into your system for uncompromised stereo pleasure from digital or analog sources.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Any ideas? The only problem , as i wrote before, is that i wouldn't be able to try them, since all stereo shops in my town shut down, and also in other towns they don't have many choices, at least in this covid situation.


P.s.https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/elac-debut-reference-dbr-62-speaker-review.12232/

meanwhile browsing the site, I found the review of the Elac debut reference dbr62 very encouraging, do you think my amplifier is suitable for driving them?

Thanks
That's one idea I had thought of as I've seen generally very nice user comments as well as that review for that model. I think we have a couple members that bought some, too...

I haven't had a brick and mortar for speakers for many years. I generally research a speaker I'm interested in and try and find measurements and a variety of user/owner comments.....(I don't find subjective reviews very helpful generally, tho). I takes my chances with internet buying, tho. Where are you? Many of my suggestions would be more for the US....
 

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