Help understanding Harman/Kardon AVR power ratings

[Seth=L]

Agreed, a refurb is fine.

 

[mnatiq]

Go with what Peng says.

HK's have more HDMI handshake issues than other brands. But they are cheap. So if you don't mind the risk go for it. Plus you can always get an external amp with the savings.

the firmware update fixed all the problems for my 354.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So the amount of current that you get from a watt does not vary from receiver to receiver?

Honest question, thanks.

How can it? Power = current x voltage it is fixed by the laws of physics.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Harmon/Kardon AVR's always seem underpowered compared to the competition. I've heard every manufacturer uses different standards for rating the power of their devices.

What I want to know is, has anyone ever gathered a group of receivers to verify their true power ratings? Is there such a thing as a true power rating? Like strapping a car to a dyno?

Yes, there are testing labs that do measure amp power by a standard.
In the past with two channels there was not a misinterpreting the power if the FTC rules were used. Today, with multi channel, some still use the 2 ch driven test for any 2 ch and some amount to the rest. The FTC rules may be interpreted, I suppose. HK uses an 'all channels driven' test to full power, hence their units seem so low although their 2 channel rating is nothing spectacular either.
Amps are rated to full power, RMS. Power can be stated for 1 ch, 2 ch or all ch to full power at the same time.

 

[3db]

Personally I would like to see the all channels driven test (Yes I know all speakers may not be firing at the same time in teh real world) but the all channels test really tells what the power supply is capable of sustaining.

 

[valvesnvinylfan]

+1, I think mags like Home Theater do a good job of this, check out their receiver/amp measurements; they'll bench test their receivers with all channels driven into an 8 ohm load with power output results at .1% and 1% distortion. What I think it admirable is that the Marantz and H/K receivers are almost always honestly--and even conservatively rated. OTOH, look at the latest Pioneer 1019 and Sony ES models that supposedly have 100 WPC+. Very sobering.

 

[lsiberian]

I've heard about the "handshake" issue. Seems like a firmware update has fixed it.

I have the latest firmware and my HK still has handshake issues. It won't even work with my HDTV tuner via HDMI.

I run it through component and optical cable now.

My PS3 works fine though.

 

[valvesnvinylfan]

How can it? Power = current x voltage it is fixed by the laws of physics.

I think Jason's question was regarding different current levels in different receivers/amps with the same supposed wattage, which of course can be wildly variable. For example: 10 amps of current x 18 volts = 180 watts, but so does 15 amps x 12.

 

[smihalik]

Breaking news! I found a steal of price on a Marantz SR6003, It will cost me less than what I was paying for the SR5003! Picking it up on Tuesday.

I won't be worrying about power output with that badboy.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/3143/marantz-sr6003-av-receiver-ergonomics-page2.html

 

[mtrycrafts]

. but the all channels test really tells what the power supply is capable of sustaining.

Well, it tells you what it is capable of sustaining under that condition.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... OTOH, look at the latest Pioneer 1019 and Sony ES models that supposedly have 100 WPC+. Very sobering.

You mean they cannot output 100watts for one channel or two channel driven?

 

[3db]

Well, it tells you what it is capable of sustaining under that condition.

It tells way more. All channels driven is worst case scenario and if the supplies can handle sustained output at worst case, then 2 channel is a walk in the park.

 

[mtrycrafts]

It tells way more. All channels driven is worst case scenario and if the supplies can handle sustained output at worst case, then 2 channel is a walk in the park.

Yes, it is the worst case and should do better in 2ch but I just checked HK's receivers, from the 1600 to 7550HD. The 1600 has the same power rating whether 2 ch or 5 ch, so that one is not better

HK AVR 1600
SPECIFICATIONS: Audio
Stereo Mode
Continuous Average Power (FTC) per Channel : 50 Watts per channel, 20Hz – 20kHz, @ <0.07% THD, both channels driven into 8 ohms
Five-Channel Surround Modes, Power per Individual Channel,
All Channels Operating at Full Power :
Front L & R Channels : 50 Watts per channel @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz – 20kHz into 8 ohms
Center Channel : 50 Watts @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz – 20kHz into 8 ohms
Surround Channels : 50 Watts per channel @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz – 20kHz into 8 ohms

 

[3db]

Yes, it is the worst case and should do better in 2ch but I just checked HK's receivers, from the 1600 to 7550HD. The 1600 has the same power rating whether 2 ch or 5 ch, so that one is not better

HK AVR 1600
SPECIFICATIONS: Audio
Stereo Mode
Continuous Average Power (FTC) per Channel : 50 Watts per channel, 20Hz – 20kHz, @ <0.07% THD, both channels driven into 8 ohms
Five-Channel Surround Modes, Power per Individual Channel,
All Channels Operating at Full Power :
Front L & R Channels : 50 Watts per channel @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz – 20kHz into 8 ohms
Center Channel : 50 Watts @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz – 20kHz into 8 ohms
Surround Channels : 50 Watts per channel @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz – 20kHz into 8 ohms

Dammit Captain!! We'll have to bench test this one to get the real facts!!

 

[rnatalli]

FYI, HK made several misprints regarding the 1600. It's actually 35wpc, +/-25 amps.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Dammit Captain!! We'll have to bench test this one to get the real facts!!

Yes, that would be good. Not sure why HK would not print good numbers though. After all, it has that reputation for real numbers

 

[PENG]

Dammit Captain!! We'll have to bench test this one to get the real facts!!

In every bench tests on their models, they did output much more than their specified figures. The problem is, those numbers still fall short of most Denon, Yamaha, even Sony ES models within the same price group. Their 5, or ACD numbers typically fare better but still fall short of equivalent (price wise) Denon models while half the time they beat Sony, Pioneer and certain Yamaha and Onkyo models.

 

[PENG]

FYI, HK made several misprints regarding the 1600. It's actually 35wpc, +/-25 amps.

+/-25A for a very short duration only. In the last bench test I read, the 31 lb 330's did poorly driving 4 ohm load. It even activated its protection mode in 0.5 second if asked to produce more than 25W.

 

[mtrycrafts]

+/-25A for a very short duration only. In the last bench test I read, the 31 lb 330's did poorly driving 4 ohm load. It even activated its protection mode in 0.5 second if asked to produce more than 25W.

Isn't it high current though?

 

[valvesnvinylfan]

You mean they cannot output 100watts for one channel or two channel driven?

Looks like they can in two channel according to Home Theater Mag's measurements, but not in 5 channels. in the Pioneer 1019 review, looks like distortion starts setting in at 34.3 watts per channel, 5 channels driven. And when they measured the Sony 5400ES, which I've tried using and rather liked), it started distorting at 45 wpc, 5 channels driven. However, it's two-channel power seemed to measure higher than stated and pretty boss