Help Speccing First Proper Stereo?

[ConsoleChairman]

I was given a Sherwood RX-4105 and, knowing basically nothing about stereos, bought two BIC DV84 towers. It's my understanding that I can't use those speakers with that receiver without risking damaging the speakers due to clipping, if that's wrong please correct me. Since I either need new speakers or a new receiver, I thought I'd just take the excuse and upgrade everything to work with the new speakers (I'm coming from a Sony LBT-ZX99i so anything should be an improvement).

The problem is, I have no idea what I'm looking for, what's essential, what's overkill, etc.

 

[lovinthehd]

Those speakers are rated at 8 ohm impedance and of reasonable sensitivity (90dB at 1w/1m) and the receiver should be able to drive them to very loud levels without issue, it's rated at 100wpc for 8ohm loads. The receiver is likely not rated for lower impedances (I didn't see one) and your speakers likely do have some lower impedance dips but if you keep the volume to a reasonable level you should be fine....you could induce clipping if you drive them beyond the receiver's capabilities (i.e. by turning it up too loud) but just keep the volume dial in a reasonable location and use your ears as to limits, volume dial is your way of controlling the situation. That receiver is fairly low end but within its limits should do a reasonable job.

ps you could look thru the articles/threads here for some further thoughts on the subject of how much power do I need....

ps Welcome to the forums...

 

[ConsoleChairman]

How loud is a reasonable level? Loud enough to hear, to make conversation difficult, or to rattle the windows?

 

[lovinthehd]

How loud is a reasonable level? Loud enough to hear, to make conversation difficult, or to rattle the windows?

You tell me, that's very subjective. You could measure sound pressure levels (spl) with a meter to correlate the numbers to what you're hearing. You might use a chart like this to get an idea. 90dB with one watt at one meter's distance is pretty loud, though. Maybe play with an spl calculator to get an idea of how that works http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

I'd think even that receiver could get uncomfortably loud without too much issue, depending on how far away you are from the speakers....

 

[ConsoleChairman]

Using the calculator, they'd max out at ~100-103 Db depending where I'm at in the room, which the chart links to a handheld drill. I don't consider that especially loud, and I've never been on a motorcycle so I can't compare to that. 115 Db for a siren would definitely be too loud, though. But I think a part of my issue is that's maximum, pushing it as hard as the amp'll go. I feel like it would be better to actually have some headroom because as it is having it anything I would consider loud just makes me anxious and not because it's actually loud but because I feel like it's probably just loud enough to do something wrong but I'm not going to hear it because I'm not listening that closely.

 

[lovinthehd]

Using the calculator, they'd max out at ~100-103 Db depending where I'm at in the room, which the chart links to a handheld drill. I don't consider that especially loud, and I've never been on a motorcycle so I can't compare to that. 115 Db for a siren would definitely be too loud, though. But I think a part of my issue is that's maximum, pushing it as hard as the amp'll go. I feel like it would be better to actually have some headroom because as it is having it anything I would consider loud just makes me anxious and not because it's actually loud but because I feel like it's probably just loud enough to do something wrong but I'm not going to hear it because I'm not listening that closely.

You can also think of movie standards, reference playback level is an average of 85dB with allowance for 20 dB peaks (10dB higher for the LFE channel), which is quite loud. Keep in mind avr amps are usually within a few dB of each other, to get significant amplification you may need an external power amp (and a receiver that has pre-outs to accommodate). If you want to play back at very high levels for long periods of time that Sherwood may not be the best tool for the job, tho....

 

[ConsoleChairman]

Oh absolutely, hence the "upgrade everything" in my first post. I feel the speakers are good enough for entry level, they're well reviewed in the few places I can find them and they're the same brand as my home theater speakers which I've been satisfied with, but I have no attachment to anything else. I was literally given the Sherwood, it can go in the garage for a cheap/simple stereo in there, but that means I need everything but speakers for the new system and I don't know where to begin.

I didn't know how to search for receivers with pre-outs and just clicking through stuff, I didn't find any. So I figured I must need a preamp instead, but those mostly seemed to be a grand or more...so i'm kind of stumped on what I need. I did find this amp though, which would push plenty of power for the speakers and I'm fine with the price, though I don't know how good that price is compared to other amps, I had trouble finding those as well....

 

[lovinthehd]

So this is just a 2ch system separate from another HT system you have? Are you looking at 2ch receivers or AVRs or integrated amps?

Best way to find an avr with pre-outs is to look at the specs (and usually the manufacturer's website is far more useful than a retailer's, especially for specs and manuals and such). Usually these days you need to be at least mid price point in an avr range to get the pre-outs other than sub pre-outs (Denon 3400 and up for an avr in their current lineup for example, 3300 and up in their previous series). Do you even want to accommodate a subwoofer? Generally an avr will cost less than an equivalent pre-amp/pre-pro just due to economies of scale...and you would definitely need to get a power amp with the latter, whereas an avr has on-board amplification (and in 2ch mode most avrs are pretty powerful for the money). Just what is your budget?

The pro amps like QSC (or Crown XLS Drivecore series) are good ways to go for external amplification as long as you have pre-outs on your receiver/integrated amp.

 

[KEW]

. It's my understanding that I can't use those speakers with that receiver without risking damaging the speakers due to clipping, if that's wrong please correct me.

I think you are wrong about this, but I am not overly familiar with your speakers (just that BIC are usually an easy load).
100 RMS at 8 ohms is a good amount of power.
Where did you get this impression?

 

[highfigh]

I was given a Sherwood RX-4105 and, knowing basically nothing about stereos, bought two BIC DV84 towers. It's my understanding that I can't use those speakers with that receiver without risking damaging the speakers due to clipping, if that's wrong please correct me. Since I either need new speakers or a new receiver, I thought I'd just take the excuse and upgrade everything to work with the new speakers (I'm coming from a Sony LBT-ZX99i so anything should be an improvement).

The problem is, I have no idea what I'm looking for, what's essential, what's overkill, etc.

WRT the bold part- that's wrong. You could use any amp with those speakers and not blow them up, but you need to work inside of the normal operating range for the amp and the speakers.

As far as the receiver, I used one of them in a bar and it worked great- not a lot of money for a receiver that did what was needed. If you're not worried about surround, I would use it until you decide that you need something else. If you like the speakers, use those, too. Just know that full power isn't reached by cranking the volume control wide open. If you find that setting the volume control at the 12:00 top position isn't loud enough, THEN, look for something mightier.

 

[ConsoleChairman]

Family was clearing out their garage and the Sherwood was in there, figured if nothing else it would be good for garage audio but it was a better receiver than my stereo in the den so I was going to use it, then I ended up here.

I've really only got space for 2 or 2.1, it's the room with my pool table and it's already a little cumbersome having the speakers a couple feet out from the wall like they ought to be according to the booklet. I have no idea if I want a receiver or avr or integrated amp, I don't know the difference. I'll be playing almost entirely music on it though, no gaming or movies.

As for budget, I've no idea what parts generally cost so my kneejerk price would be $500-750 with possible room for expansion, not counting adding a subwoofer.

KEW - While it might not be true for all volumes, it still just makes me nervous being so close to maxing out the amp, especially still wanting more bass at that volume (receiver is at 0 adjustment for bass or treble). I've ordered a decibel meter so I can actually get a reading on how loud I'm turning it up as well, to help me understand.

highfigh - I cranked it pretty high, 30 out of (I think) 40 and Slipknot came on and the vocals sounded...off? So I panicked and turned it down and shut it off for now. But....it's also Slipknot, which all sounds a bit off anyway when I'm listening super close and paranoid that the speaker is too loud for the amp and I might damage it. So...hard to say. Nothing I listen to really lends itself to hearing crackling or anything. I'm also not sure how to tell I'm in the "normal operating range" for the amp, I've nothing to measure it with.

 

[KEW]

I find a vacuum cleaner quite loud and always wear earplugs with the lawn mower.
These charts are not great because I'm sure there are some pretty quiet lawn mowers and some exceptionally loud lawn mowers same is true of hair dryers. But I usually listen around 80dB with an occasional peak in the mid-upper 90's.

 

[ConsoleChairman]

I generally wear ballistic earmuffs for table saws (seen in another similar chart, I think ~110 db), but an electric drill or a belt sander never seemed especially loud to me. That's another reason I ordered the decibel meter thing, so I could get a bit more of an absolute on "how loud is 90 db"

 

[lovinthehd]

I generally wear ballistic earmuffs for table saws (seen in another similar chart, I think ~110 db), but an electric drill or a belt sander never seemed especially loud to me. That's another reason I ordered the decibel meter thing, so I could get a bit more of an absolute on "how loud is 90 db"

What one did you order? Personally I'd recommend a more useful measurement mic (like a Dayton UMM-6 or a miniDSP Umik-1) and using software like REW (Room EQ Wizard)...you can also get a simple dB meter app for your phone for a quick check.

A pre-amp has some source switching and helps set pre-amplification levels. A pre-pro is generally a multi-ch pre-amp with video capabilities as well. An integrated amp is a power amp and pre-amp in the same box, like an avr is a pre-pro and amp in the same box but with the addition of built-in radio tuner/internet sources. A power amp is just that, and generally you need at least a volume control via a pre-amp section in another unit.

If interested in 2.1 watch for units that have some bass management (having a subwoofer pre-out alone isn't the same thing), many don't. One 2ch receiver with 2.1 capabilities many like is something like the Outlaw Audio RR2160, but personally I'd spend the same money on an avr that has more capabilities even if you don't use them all (now).

 

[ConsoleChairman]

This one

I got a db app for my phone, but apparently my mic is capped at 77 db somehow, I can scream at it all I want, blow on the mic, etc. and it just sits at 77 db, not even rattling back and forth.

Would an AVR or that RR2160 be the only thing I need or would I need them in addition to something else?

 

[lovinthehd]

That should do it. Yep seems your phone has limitations, I used an app with mine in excess of 100dB...but that was more out of curiosity rather than using it.

The all-in-one-box solution of a receiver (whether a 2ch audio only or a multi-ch avr) is generally all you need for now....well, until you decide you want to add a monster amp or a subwoofer or two, etc....

 

[highfigh]

highfigh - I cranked it pretty high, 30 out of (I think) 40 and Slipknot came on and the vocals sounded...off? So I panicked and turned it down and shut it off for now. But....it's also Slipknot, which all sounds a bit off anyway when I'm listening super close and paranoid that the speaker is too loud for the amp and I might damage it. So...hard to say. Nothing I listen to really lends itself to hearing crackling or anything. I'm also not sure how to tell I'm in the "normal operating range" for the amp, I've nothing to measure it with.

30 out of 40 means you were probably past rated power output and it was clipping- how was it wehn you backed off the volume?

You can go wide open throttle (WOT) in a car- do you? No, not usually. Why? Because it's not necessary and doing that for a long time will kill your engine. Amplifiers are similar- they develop max power somewhere and leave a bit for headroom in case the source material is at a lower level than average.

The question that needs an answer- "How loud does it need to be?".

My first stereo had 10" 3-way speakers, a crappy turntable and a Pioneer SX-525 receiver that put out a blistering 13W/channel at 1% THD when it was tested. It still got loud. Did it sound particularly good? Not when I cranked the crap out of it. It sounded better at moderate levels with the extra speakers I connected to make it a four speaker system.

 

[ConsoleChairman]

It was fine? I don't think I damaged anything if that's what you mean. At ~25/40 it's loud enough-ish, but the bass isn't strong enough and I don't know how much I could turn up the bass at that level without being too much for the receiver.

The Sony I was using up until now was my first stereo that I bought when I started my current job, it sounds fine to me for the most part, but the specs are awful. 120Hz-10KHz range, 10% THD...but 170W/channel and 4x 6 Ohm speakers...so there's that. I'm curious to listen to music on a proper stereo and see what exactly sounds different.

 

[ConsoleChairman]

There's a used VSX01124-K (AVR) on Amazon for $190 with 2.2 pre out. Thoughts on pairing that with the QSC GX3 amp?

AVR specs - https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Pioneer+Receivers/VSX-1124-K
amp specs - https://www.qsc.com/live-sound/products/power-amplifiers/gx-series/gx3/

That would put me under $500 for both pieces, and even the possibility of two subs if I really wanted.

 

[lovinthehd]

What return/warranty options come with those options? How important is that to you?