Help! Please critique my HT system so I can pull the trigger!

[maxy]

Hi!
This is my first post - but I have been lurking around for the last 2 months. I am finally finishing the research and demoing phase and am about to pull the trigger this week. This is my system so far (I can't even begin to tell you how drastically this system changed, went from looking at B&W 600s to 700s to 805 to 804 - now totally switched to wall mountable speakers - WAF and 1 year toddler who likes to knock things down). For now I have decided to stick to building a HT system and when the kid gets bigger in a couple of years then go back and build a dedicated audio system. This is the system so far:

Speakers
B&W FPM 5 (sides)
B&W FPM 6 (center)
SCMS (rear)

Woofer
Still debating between Velodyne DD-10, PV1, ASW700

Receiver
Rotel 1057

DVD
Oppo 971H

TV
Panasonic 8UK (50inch)

So a couple of questions
1. What should I use for the back speakers (FPM2 or SMCS?)
2. Should I get a dedicated CD player (i.e. Rotel 1072) since Oppo isn't great with audio? I'm opting to go with the Oppo instead of the expensive Rotel 1092 because I'm going to upgrade in a couple of years when the Blu-Ray/HD DVD fight is over.
3. Is it worth it to upgrade from the receiver to components (1068 and 1075). My initial thoughts were not to since I didn't end up getting the 804
4. Any suggestions on the subwoofer?
5. Instead of using Rotel for the receiver, should I do the Denon AVR-3806 instead?
6. Finally, what % do dealers usually give if you purchase the whole system (except DVD, TV and potentially woffer) from them (10, 15 or 20%)?

Thanks for any help and input. Hopefully I'm going to pull the trigger this week (unless I get suckered into listening to the 804s again and change my mind!)

 

[B5I8]

Personally I'd go with either the Denon AVR-3806 or the new Yamaha RX-V2700 for the receiver. As far as the DVD player, I'd much prefer the Yamaha DVD-C950 or a Denon again. As far as your speaker choice, you like what you hear so go with it.

 

[AdrianMills]

WAF and kids - a pity, neither goes too well with AV...

- The bass, well the PV1 has more WAF apparently, but bang for the buck wise it falls short - you pay a lot for that look and foot print. Out of the 3 you listed I would be tempted more by the DD10 but it is very expensive still. SVS do subs with more bang for the buck but then again they are much larger (but make nice side tables - the quality of the finish is excellent).

- I haven't heard the B&W FPM's but I'm confused as to why you want them in the front and are thinking of the SCMS for rears. Probably better to have the FPM all around or the SCMS all around together the HTM4.

- Given the plasma you're located in the UK right? I don't think you're as likely to get a large discount as you are in the US where they routinely get 20%.

 

[maxy]

At first the wife was okay with getting free standing speakers so we spent a ton of time listening to the 700 and 800 series - however when the kid pulled down a tall and very heavy floor lamp (shattering it to a thousand pieces). Well,that was the end of that dream!

I am located in the US. One store gave me a 12% another 15% but I have read of 20% - just didn't know if it was common or not. This configuration (FPM followed by SCMS) was recommended by both dealers. I haven't heard of the HTM4 combined with the FPM - though I did do a combo fo the HTM4 with the 805s. We would need to screw the HTM4 to the wall somehow - the current stand is not quite high enough to be out of my sons reach. I'm scratching my head myself - why didn't we go all the way around with the FPM or SCMS?

I was curious about the Rotel receiver vs. the more popular Yamaha and Denon. The dealers suggested going with the Rotel because the B&W's are more "compatible". Hum....

 

[Nick250]

Some folks claim they hear big differences between receivers. I can't and so I have a Denon 3806.

Nick

 

[jcPanny]

System suggestions

For on wall speakers, also check out the options from Axiom Audio and Paradigm. If the B&W on-walls are comparable to the 6 series than Axiom and Paradigm might sound a lot better.

As suggested, Yamaha and Denon make some great mid-fi receivers.

Don't rule out a 10" or 12" sub from SVS or HSU.

The oppo is a great DVD player with great video performance from the DVI output. The D/A audio quality is irrelivant if you are using an optical or coax digital output for DVDs and CDs because the receiver will be doing the D/A conversion. I also heard that a new company OZmods will have an audio mod for the oppo player to improve the A/D outputs.

I would expect a 15-20% discount if you purchase the entire speaker system.

 

[B5I8]

Some folks claim they hear big differences between receivers. I can't and so I have a Denon 3806.

Nick

I know there is a huge difference if you listen to an Onkyo then listen to a Denon. With the Onkyo, it sounds like there is a piece of paper in front of the speakers where as the Denon is very clean and clear.

 

[malvado78]

I know there is a huge difference if you listen to an Onkyo then listen to a Denon. With the Onkyo, it sounds like there is a piece of paper in front of the speakers where as the Denon is very clean and clear.

This is the most ridiculous thing I think I have seen posted on this sight. A well designed reciever is transparent to the signals passing through. Now there are better and worse amplifiers and DACs but put out a blanket statement against two manufactures and one sounds worse than the other is ignorance.

 

[B5I8]

This is the most ridiculous thing I think I have seen posted on this sight. A well designed reciever is transparent to the signals passing through. Now there are better and worse amplifiers and DACs but put out a blanket statement against two manufactures and one sounds worse than the other is ignorance.

Have you ever done a listening comparison with an Onkyo? If you did, you'd know that I'm right. Perhaps it's just the lower models but there is a huge difference in sound.

 

[malvado78]

I would agree that a lower model would not sound as good. THis is due to the lack of a quality amplifier. And yes I have listened to the onkyo's even the low end. If you go up the line they are just fine but the lower end models really need a more sensitive speaker so it will not be required to driven as hard.

Thanks

 

[AdrianMills]

At first the wife was okay with getting free standing speakers so we spent a ton of time listening to the 700 and 800 series - however when the kid pulled down a tall and very heavy floor lamp (shattering it to a thousand pieces). Well,that was the end of that dream!

I am located in the US. One store gave me a 12% another 15% but I have read of 20% - just didn't know if it was common or not. This configuration (FPM followed by SCMS) was recommended by both dealers. I haven't heard of the HTM4 combined with the FPM - though I did do a combo fo the HTM4 with the 805s. We would need to screw the HTM4 to the wall somehow - the current stand is not quite high enough to be out of my sons reach. I'm scratching my head myself - why didn't we go all the way around with the FPM or SCMS?

I was curious about the Rotel receiver vs. the more popular Yamaha and Denon. The dealers suggested going with the Rotel because the B&W's are more "compatible". Hum....

Oh I thought the panny 8UK was the UK version of that plasma. Hm, well, you learn something new every day.

15 to 20% is a very good deal. In Norway we get 0% on B&W and no discussions no matter how much you spend. They will give you 50% off of the cables you buy with the speakers though. I've heard that B&W frown on too much discount.

I didn't mean you should have the HTM4 with the FPM - if I were getting FPM's I would do it all around and if I were going with the SCMS I'd do them with the HTM4 (all of which have the same drivers as the 805S). The HTM4 can be mounted on the wall above the plasma and tilted down so the tweeter is pointed to ear level at the main seating position. I'm not sure if B&W or others do a wall mount like this for centers but I've seen pictures of people using adjustable wall stands designed for CRTs.

Have you sat down and actually listened to the FPMs and then the SCMS or better yet, have them set up side by side and do an AB comparison which is the ideal? If not you should try to find a dealer that will do that for you.

The Rotel thing.... well, hm. B&W state some pretty low min impedance for some of their speakers - the SCMS has a min of 4.7 ohms and the HTM4S has a min of 2.6 (!) – so in that respect it wouldn’t be wise to try to run them off an el-cheapo receiver. Rotel is "supposed to be more able to handle difficult loads" compared to mid-fi receivers like the Denon 4306 but I’m not sure how well that actually works in the real world. Take a look at the 4306 review that’s been done here on Audioholics and it looks as if it can handle pretty much anything within reason. If it turns out that it can’t handle the load and clips at the volumes you listen at, well, you just add an external amp. You have a lot of options over there that will give you far more bang for the buck than Rotel amps too – people talk of Outlaw all the time and they also rave about Emotiva too. My guess is that most if not all of the Rotel receivers would clip before the 4306 or any of the higher end receivers from Yamaha.

A lot of this depends though – these Denon and Yamaha receivers have a lot of the latest and greatest features and you may not really want or need that complexity so a simple Rotel solution may be more suited to you?

If you’re interested – I have the 804S on order (6 weeks and counting now and I’m very annoyed by the delay!) together with the HTM7, a Denon 4306 and a 3910. Next year I will probably add a pair of 805S/SCMS and change the HTM7 to a HTM3. I also have a SVS PB12plus sub. I’m hoping the 4306 will have enough to drive them to the levels I want but if not I’m thinking of getting either a NAD M25 or C272 amp (unless someone can suggest something better for the price that I can get in Europe).

 

[maxy]

Thanks everyone for all your input. It is great to get such a variety of brands for the receivers. Unfortunately at the dealerships, they usually only have 3 choices and the dealers always push Rotel. They get mad if I want to listen with a different brand receivers. I'm going to make another trip to the dealers tomorrow and do more tests. Thanks for the suggestions. The one store that carries Paradigm around my house - was a joke on so many levels. So unfortunately we will not be buying Paradigms this round. We do like the sound of the B&W. I'll spend some time researching Axioms, if they sound similar it is a consideration since they are significantly cheaper.

 

[maxy]

Hi AdrianMills,

We must have posted at the same time!
Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK is the commercial model. Which is now discontinued. Thanks for the clarification on the FPM. The dealership didn't have SCMS to listen too. I haven't heard of anyone using SCMS all the way around though. I asked the dealer last time and he gave me a weird look.

The whole debate between the different types of mid range receivers kills me. I just started looking into it recently as I was planning on doing components originally (Rotel 1068 and 1075). I keep reading the Rotel receiver is not very "bang for your buck". Feels like I'm starting from scratch again. Annoying since I only have 3 days to finish up the research and buy the system (tax free weekend coming up here).

Anyways, I'm very jealous of your setup. My ideal setup was the 805S, SCMS, HTM4, Classe SSp30, Rotel RMB 1095. I'm going to have to wait until my kids get a little older for that one though.

BTW-I'm looking into the SVS subs instead of the PV1. Trying to cut some corners with the sub. Wondering if the NSD series (10 or 12 inches) will be sufficient?

 

[AdrianMills]

Hi AdrianMills,

We must have posted at the same time!
Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK is the commercial model. Which is now discontinued. Thanks for the clarification on the FPM. The dealership didn't have SCMS to listen too. I haven't heard of anyone using SCMS all the way around though. I asked the dealer last time and he gave me a weird look.

The whole debate between the different types of mid range receivers kills me. I just started looking into it recently as I was planning on doing components originally (Rotel 1068 and 1075). I keep reading the Rotel receiver is not very "bang for your buck". Feels like I'm starting from scratch again. Annoying since I only have 3 days to finish up the research and buy the system (tax free weekend coming up here).

Anyways, I'm very jealous of your setup. My ideal setup was the 805S, SCMS, HTM4, Classe SSp30, Rotel RMB 1095. I'm going to have to wait until my kids get a little older for that one though.

BTW-I'm looking into the SVS subs instead of the PV1. Trying to cut some corners with the sub. Wondering if the NSD series (10 or 12 inches) will be sufficient?

I read some early posts when the HD8UK was just about to be released and I think that's where I picked up that it was a UK only model - nice panel. I have the pv500 - I think they share the same glass but your panel looks so much nicer.

I think I saw a B&W photo somewhere of the SCMS all around... and there's no reason not to, after all, they are just 805S in a redesigned cabinet that's more suited to wall mounting.

I think your dealers are a little strange...

There are a few high end-mid-fi receiver manufacturers out there that just cannot compete with the likes of Denon and Yamaha when it comes to bang for the buck these days. Audio snobs that deal in name recognition would tell you that a receiver made by Rotel, HK, et al would "blow away" a Denon but it's just not the case any more.

As for the sub - it depends on how deep and loud you like your bass and how big your room is. Also, the ported subs tend to be big - and I mean jaw dropping big (I really meant it when I said my PB12 plus is used as a side table) but SVS do have a new sealed sub, the SB12 plus, for $750 that looks really incredible; http://www.svsound.com/news-news.cfm

You have tax free weekends over there?

 

[AdrianMills]

I just saw that you have the same thread going over on HTGuide (which I still read to have a laugh even though I no longer contribute for various reasons ). There are a lot of snake oil merchants at work over there so take what they say with a large dose of salt.

With a room size of 22x15 a 12" NSD would be fine but if I were you I'd seriously consider the plus models just for the nice veneer finishes even if you ignore the incremental performance increase. And consider the PB for woofer safety/side table utilization (down firing so kids fingers are less of a problem) or SB (available in Sept) for WAF.

Really, the PV1 is hugely overpriced.

 

[jcPanny]

Onkyo receivers

I know there is a huge difference if you listen to an Onkyo then listen to a Denon. With the Onkyo, it sounds like there is a piece of paper in front of the speakers where as the Denon is very clean and clear.

Broad generalizations like this wont help anyone make a purchasing decision. I doubt you have heard the model in quesiton because it was just released. Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, HK, and Pionner all produce decent performing mid-fi receivers with similar features and price points.

Also, the receiver must have reasonable power, low distortion, and a good frequency response to pass the THX select testing.

 

[3db]

I think Rotel would be a step from Yamaha and NAD

Oh I thought the panny 8UK was the UK version of that plasma. Hm, well, you learn something new every day.

15 to 20% is a very good deal. In Norway we get 0% on B&W and no discussions no matter how much you spend. They will give you 50% off of the cables you buy with the speakers though. I've heard that B&W frown on too much discount.

I didn't mean you should have the HTM4 with the FPM - if I were getting FPM's I would do it all around and if I were going with the SCMS I'd do them with the HTM4 (all of which have the same drivers as the 805S). The HTM4 can be mounted on the wall above the plasma and tilted down so the tweeter is pointed to ear level at the main seating position. I'm not sure if B&W or others do a wall mount like this for centers but I've seen pictures of people using adjustable wall stands designed for CRTs.

Have you sat down and actually listened to the FPMs and then the SCMS or better yet, have them set up side by side and do an AB comparison which is the ideal? If not you should try to find a dealer that will do that for you.

The Rotel thing.... well, hm. B&W state some pretty low min impedance for some of their speakers - the SCMS has a min of 4.7 ohms and the HTM4S has a min of 2.6 (!) – so in that respect it wouldn’t be wise to try to run them off an el-cheapo receiver. Rotel is "supposed to be more able to handle difficult loads" compared to mid-fi receivers like the Denon 4306 but I’m not sure how well that actually works in the real world. Take a look at the 4306 review that’s been done here on Audioholics and it looks as if it can handle pretty much anything within reason. If it turns out that it can’t handle the load and clips at the volumes you listen at, well, you just add an external amp. You have a lot of options over there that will give you far more bang for the buck than Rotel amps too – people talk of Outlaw all the time and they also rave about Emotiva too. My guess is that most if not all of the Rotel receivers would clip before the 4306 or any of the higher end receivers from Yamaha.

A lot of this depends though – these Denon and Yamaha receivers have a lot of the latest and greatest features and you may not really want or need that complexity so a simple Rotel solution may be more suited to you?

If you’re interested – I have the 804S on order (6 weeks and counting now and I’m very annoyed by the delay!) together with the HTM7, a Denon 4306 and a 3910. Next year I will probably add a pair of 805S/SCMS and change the HTM7 to a HTM3. I also have a SVS PB12plus sub. I’m hoping the 4306 will have enough to drive them to the levels I want but if not I’m thinking of getting either a NAD M25 or C272 amp (unless someone can suggest something better for the price that I can get in Europe).

in terms of being able to drive difficult loads, both Rotel and NAD are step up over yamaha and Denon and rate their power all channels driven. So even if real world doesn't present all channels driven, you know there's enough juice in the power supply to drive 2 or 3 channels worth of difficult loads. I still can't believe that anyone would choose a Yammy or a Denon over a Rotel when it comes to driving difficult loads.

 

[maxy]

Yup. We have tax free weekends (and weeks!) here - except it happens to be in the middle of summer when everyone is away on vacation so most people don't really pay attention to them. Though I imagine if your country had a Tax Free weekend - everyone would make it a priority to do a years worth of shopping during that weekend!
It would be great if I could find a dealer who sold B&W as well as Yammy and Denon. But the B&W dealers here only carry Rotel and NAD. So I don't think I would be able to compare unless I try demoing in my own home after purchasing the speakers.
Unfortunatley, I didn't get a chance to demo them today. Only 2 more days, time is ticking!
Woofers - I'm pretty sure I don't need the PV1. Will demo the ASW 675 and ASW700. Its good to know the SVS works well with the B&W. I may end up buying these without demoing.

 

[AdrianMills]

in terms of being able to drive difficult loads, both Rotel and NAD are step up over yamaha and Denon and rate their power all channels driven. So even if real world doesn't present all channels driven, you know there's enough juice in the power supply to drive 2 or 3 channels worth of difficult loads. I still can't believe that anyone would choose a Yammy or a Denon over a Rotel when it comes to driving difficult loads.

Well, mainly because marketing claims are just that, claims.

Substantiation; please point me to technical review that tests this statement and indicates that Rotel receivers have more grunt than the Denon 4306 (or higher models).

As for the dedicated amplifiers - well, Denon don't do a dedicated multichannel power amp, do they? So comparing a power amp with a receiver is not exactly comparing like with like - having said that, my guess is that the 3806, 4306 and higher model receivers from Denon will give at least some of the Rotel power amps a run for their money.

I've just got confirmation from av123 that the Emotiva MPS1 ships to Europe so if I decided to buy a dedicated power amp I'll probably go with that assuming the import taxes and shipping won't drive the price up too high.

 

[silversurfer]

I've just got confirmation from av123 that the Emotiva MPS1 ships to Europe so if I decided to buy a dedicated power amp I'll probably go with that assuming the import taxes and shipping won't drive the price up too high.

You are in Europe? Did you import your SVS sub as well?

Why would you buy an internet direct amp from the States? What if you needed some kind of support?

Have you heard the amp? There can't be more than a couple hundred of these out in the wild.