Help! Please critique my HT system so I can pull the trigger!

[AdrianMills]

You are in Europe? Did you import your SVS sub as well?

SVS has European distributors - I paid 1700 US$ to my door with the current exchange rate. Very cheap when compared to subs of equivalent performance here - the Monolith is the only sub that approaches it for bang/buck here I think and I'd need 2 of them to out perform my PB12 plus and although I could get them for approx the same price 2 of them are an even larger footprint in my living room.

Why would you buy an internet direct amp from the States? What if you needed some kind of support?

Why not? Support? I've been told by a guy living not so far from me that it took 6 months from the time his Denon was sent away for repair to the time he had it back. With turn around times like this for B&M products here in Norway there's not much to gain really.

Have you heard the amp? There can't be more than a couple hundred of these out in the wild.

I could point you to a number of threads where the sound of amps has been discussed if you want but I'm not about to start another "most SS amps sound the same" discussion here. The excellent review also does a lot to satisfy any qualms I'd have.

Remember, an amp is not a set of speakers and is not subject to the same acoustic taste issues.

A few other things; I'd get a 7 channel MPS1 when I only need 5 - that's 2 spare channels in case of failure. I'm assuming the cage is going to be more reliable than the amps themselves.

The cost of an equivalent amp here is quite astonishing. The NAD M25 is literally double the cost of what you pay for the MPS1 there and a Classé 5200 (5x200) would cost me over $13,000 which is brand markup at the extreme.

Everything considered it's a gamble with the odds well in my favour I think.
I still need to find the shipping and tax costs though - that may well increase the cost by 50 to 60%.

Of course, if you can point me in the direction of an amp that does the job just as well for an equivalent price then please let me know.

 

[silversurfer]

Yes...the amp modules are interchangeable, so that does give you two extra "spares".

So there are no european amps you would consider? Although I don't know the costs, I would think there would be some. Or maybe even the used route.

I also think it is odd that you look down your nose at internet direct speakers, but not electronics. I think you have explained it before though, not much difference in sound quality of the items, but SVS has a dealer network in Europe(which you did not mention before when we had the internet speaker discussion).

It is funny, because I am considering buying an amp from a small boutique vendor in Denmark. What country are you in?

 

[AdrianMills]

Yes...the amp modules are interchangeable, so that does give you two extra "spares".

So there are no european amps you would consider? Although I don't know the costs, I would think there would be some. Or maybe even the used route.

I also think it is odd that you look down your nose at internet direct speakers, but not electronics. I think you have explained it before though, not much difference in sound quality of the items, but SVS has a dealer network in Europe(which you did not mention before when we had the internet speaker discussion).

It is funny, because I am considering buying an amp from a small boutique vendor in Denmark. What country are you in?

I've looked at the used market here and there are quality multi-channel amps that come up from time to time but they are still quite expensive because the original B&M prices were so high. I'm also less interested in used electronics than I would be for used speakers.

I think you must have misunderstood my reservations in that speaker discussion. Firstly, speakers really can sound a lot different and whether you like them is a subjective taste issue so buying them without hearing them is a gamble with the odds stacked against you. Secondly, an objective 3rd party review would be a minimum requirement of mine before I took a risk like that even ignoring the sound issues.

I'm in Norway, not that far from Denmark in fact. What amp is it that you're considering? I'm open to suggestions on any amps here that are proven quality amps for a reasonable price – and by “reasonable” I mean bang for the buck as opposed to a low price. I don’t mind paying the price for decent power but I refuse to be ripped off for it and I don’t like paying for “designer labels” either.

BTW, I perked up my ears when I heard of the Behringer A500 but lost interest when I found out that bridged mode is only recommended into 8ohms – they cost $260 here.

 

[silversurfer]

I think you must have misunderstood my reservations in that speaker discussion. Firstly, speakers really can sound a lot different and whether you like them is a subjective taste issue so buying them without hearing them is a gamble with the odds stacked against you. Secondly, an objective 3rd party review would be a minimum requirement of mine before I took a risk like that even ignoring the sound issues.

I'm in Norway, not that far from Denmark in fact. What amp is it that you're considering? I'm open to suggestions on any amps here that are proven quality amps for a reasonable price – and by “reasonable” I mean bang for the buck as opposed to a low price. I don’t mind paying the price for decent power but I refuse to be ripped off for it and I don’t like paying for “designer labels” either.

BTW, I perked up my ears when I heard of the Behringer A500 but lost interest when I found out that bridged mode is only recommended into 8ohms – they cost $260 here.

I agree...buying anything internet direct is a risk, but shipping costs(at least here in the States) is not bad, especially for bookshelf type speakers. I think you need to look at it as risk vs. reward.

I think the price of the amp I am looking at is out of your range. It is an ICEpower based amp that is less than 40% of a similar amp in the states. The amp is made by Bertram Audio and is very much a clone of the Bel Canto e.One Ref1000.

 

[AdrianMills]

I think the price of the amp I am looking at is out of your range. It is an ICEpower based amp that is less than 40% of a similar amp in the states. The amp is made by Bertram Audio and is very much a clone of the Bel Canto e.One Ref1000.

Well, hope you're not talking about "the Ghost" amp as liking that leather look could indicate some serious issues.

The Beast seems like a cheap monoblock - 1100W into 4 ohm (it's normal to have 230v x 16A breakers here) for 5300 DKK which is almost 1:1 with the NOK (works out to 915 US$). Pretty good... Any reviews of this out there? I found some links to Norwegian sites but my Norwegian is not as accurate as I'd like - I'll check with a friend of mine and see what the locals are saying.

You do realize these guys are major snake oil manufacturers of cables too don't you?

Actually these may be an option; at one point I was considering a NAD stereo amp to drive my L&R and letting my 4306 deal with the rest, so two of these would work quite well and it's a lot cheaper than importing a MPS1 even if I don’t get 7 channels out of it… but do I really need 7 channels? Probably not… but it was a cool amp...

"I think the price of the amp I am looking at is out of your range." And which price range is that then? I'm willing to pay for quality and bang:buck but I refuse to be ripped off or pay out more than I need to but please don't assume that means I won't pay a lot if I think something is worth it (strangely, that sometimes has more to do with desire than anything else ).

 

[silversurfer]

What is interesting, because of the tax structure over there, the Beast costs less when shipped out here.

If you do a Google on ICEpower, you will find some reviews of amps using the modules. Like I said, this amp uses the same module as the Bel Canto, under OEM agreements, nothing can be done to the module.

As for the cables...yes, I know.

I was just judging your pricing range by the MPS-1 and your mention of the Behringer. Seriously, I recommend a look at class D amps using the ICEpower technology, as well as Hypex UcD.

 

[AdrianMills]

What is interesting, because of the tax structure over there, the Beast costs less when shipped out here.

If you do a Google on ICEpower, you will find some reviews of amps using the modules. Like I said, this amp uses the same module as the Bel Canto, under OEM agreements, nothing can be done to the module.

As for the cables...yes, I know.

I was just judging your pricing range by the MPS-1 and your mention of the Behringer. Seriously, I recommend a look at class D amps using the ICEpower technology, as well as Hypex UcD.

The taxes here in Norway are chronic and I think Denmark is quite bad too - and yes, I can tell you that a lot of Europeans are annoyed that you guys over the water can get European made products cheaper (sometimes a lot cheaper) than we do. I mean, how silly is that?

I've seen ICEPower amps mentioned before but I've never paid much attention but it does seem like you get a lot of bang for the buck – don’t some of those overpriced Rotels use ICEPower tech?

I just realized that the 5300 DKK is for the base 500ASP Icepower module - any idea how much he charges for the top end amp?

I'm a little concerned that I can't find any reviews of his amps - Icepower modules are all well and good but if it's fitted in a crappy box, with crappy connectors and power supply etc then it's not going to be up to par.

My price range is fixed by bang:buck, by what I need and by what I lust after.

 

[silversurfer]

I was referred to Bertram by someone in Canada and assured he uses quality parts...such as WBT for binding posts.

Like I mentioned...the ICEpower ASP modules are plug and play....the vendor supplies a connection to power, inputs, and outputs, that's it. Some add their own "stuff" before and after the module....but the folks at Bel Canto and Rotel do nothing. On ASP modules, the power supply(SMPS) is part of the module. Some feel that the "A" modules allow for better sound depending on how good the power supply is....the A modules do not have the onboard SMPS.

Some feel the 500ASP sounds better than the 1000ASP. The price quoted to me for the 1000ASP based mono I believe is under $800USD shipped.

Here is one good read:
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/icepower/icepower.html

ICEpower specs and technical papers:
http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/sw2013.asp

 

[AdrianMills]

I was referred to Bertram by someone in Canada and assured he uses quality parts...such as WBT for binding posts.

Like I mentioned...the ICEpower ASP modules are plug and play....the vendor supplies a connection to power, inputs, and outputs, that's it. Some add their own "stuff" before and after the module....but the folks at Bel Canto and Rotel do nothing. On ASP modules, the power supply(SMPS) is part of the module. Some feel that the "A" modules allow for better sound depending on how good the power supply is....the A modules do not have the onboard SMPS.

Some feel the 500ASP sounds better than the 1000ASP. The price quoted to me for the 1000ASP based mono I believe is under $800USD shipped.

Here is one good read:
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/icepower/icepower.html

ICEpower specs and technical papers:
http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/sw2013.asp

Thanks for that. I'll do some looking and maybe mail the guy for a quote.

Sean at AV123 is getting back to me on shipping the Emotiva too - one concern I have about it is that it will not have had European CE certification and although it's not illegal to plug in electrical equipment that hasn't here (I think) it may invalidate my house insurance if there's a fire.
This CE certification is one reason that SVS only ships a small subset of its range here - it costs $$$ and a lot of time/effort to get products tested and certified.

 

[silversurfer]

I used to work for an electronics company. Getting UL and CE certifications were a pain in the ***, but we had too, and I think insurance was one of the reasons.

I don't think the amps from Bertram are CE certified.

 

[AdrianMills]

I used to work for an electronics company. Getting UL and CE certifications were a pain in the ***, but we had too, and I think insurance was one of the reasons.

I don't think the amps from Bertram are CE certified.

I just got a mail back from him with some pricing info - pretty spectacular pricing at that; $1800 for 2 1000W monoblocks delivered and about $1600 for the 2x1000W stereo amp (that's with the 20% Danish tax removed and I've calculated in the 30% Norwegian tax).

I'm waiting on another mail to confirm the CE certification but I found someone selling a 2 year old Beast and the pictures of the back clearly show CE labels.

 

[AdrianMills]

They are CE certified.

I must admit that I'm getting impressed in spite of myself.

5x1000W (1 monoblock + 2 stereo amps) would cost me about the same as a NAD M25 which is no way as powerful. It does look prettier though. The space usage of these 3 amps compared to the single NAD would be about the same.

But, I may only really need 2 channels for the L&R or maybe 3 if I include the center; the 4306 can take care of the surrounds. So then the price is quite lot different - around $2000 less than the NAD.

 

[AdrianMills]

Clint/Mods,

it seems that SS and I have inadvertently hijacked this thread - any chance of splitting it from post #20 onwards and moving the posts into a thread in the amps section? Can you call it, "ID Amplifiers" or something? Thanks.

 

[maxy]

Wow. Tried to get some sleep for one night - and I come back to a heated debate! No worries AdrianMills it is all quite interesting (though a little big over my head) and I also found myself wandering over to those websites to take a peek .

Got off work early and demo'd XT2 vs. FPM5 (had some time leftover time and for kicks and giggles went into BB to listen to Vienna, Martin Logans, Definitive). Like the sound of XT2 slightly better than the FPMs. Though the XT2s are "significantly" muffled when placed really close to the wall vs. FPM5 which had less of a noticeable difference when placed against the wall.

Speakers - XT2 x4 + XTC vs. FPM5x3 + FPM2x2

Woofer
Still debating between PV1 and SVS

Receiver/Components
Either Denon or Rotel 1068/1075

DVD
Oppo 971H

TV
Panasonic 8UK (50inch)

Questions:
1. SVS subs - I'm going to call SVS customer service tomorrow and have a chat with them. Does the grill/face of the sub come off (Exposing the driver?) pretty easily? The PV1 driver is metal = toddler proof. Though my son thought it was a ball and tried to roll it around - it was definitely not going anywhere and he hit the driver a couple of times, pretty hard...good thing it was metal.
2. XT2 also come in black (instead of the silver and black). This is a new development, which helped WAF. Has anyone seen pictures of 4 XT2 setup? Would love to see it. We measured it and it is 4 inches deeper than the FPMs.
3. On the receiver front - I am not sure what I'm going to do. Listened to the differences between the three for over an hour. 1057 are suffiicent to drive the XT but 1067 clearly sounded better. And the 1068/1075 were even better. The question is what is most practical. The dealership just do not have any other brands to demo except Rotel and NAD. So I will have to buy a Denon 4306 somewhere else and try it out at home. I think my problem is there is not a perfect solution with either of the alternatives. Although someone did mention that RSP-1057 is adequate for now and wait to buy separates after the high-definition format wars have settled and when I get the 804's. I am just trying to figure out what is the smarter use of $$.

 

[AdrianMills]

Wow. Tried to get some sleep for one night - and I come back to a heated debate! No worries AdrianMills it is all quite interesting (though a little big over my head) and I also found myself wandering over to those websites to take a peek .

I've been doing a little reading here and over on avsforums and not everyone is enamoured with the ICEPower amps, especially the higher powered 1000ASP. I need to do some more research in that.

Got off work early and demo'd XT2 vs. FPM5 (had some time leftover time and for kicks and giggles went into BB to listen to Vienna, Martin Logans, Definitive). Like the sound of XT2 slightly better than the FPMs. Though the XT2s are "significantly" muffled when placed really close to the wall vs. FPM5 which had less of a noticeable difference when placed against the wall.

Speakers - XT2 x4 + XTC vs. FPM5x3 + FPM2x2

I heard a black pair of XT4's when I was waiting to audition some 703S and I wasn't impressed. They sounded extremely harsh to me to the point that I thought they must have been broken. But some people swear by them - it takes all sorts I suppose.

Questions:
1. SVS subs - I'm going to call SVS customer service tomorrow and have a chat with them. Does the grill/face of the sub come off (Exposing the driver?) pretty easily? The PV1 driver is metal = toddler proof. Though my son thought it was a ball and tried to roll it around - it was definitely not going anywhere and he hit the driver a couple of times, pretty hard...good thing it was metal.

My sub is down firing so it doesn't need a grill. The new, yet to be released, front firing SB12 has magnetic grill mounts so I doubt if it's difficult to get off. Maybe that’s not ideal for you then.

3. On the receiver front - I am not sure what I'm going to do. Listened to the differences between the three for over an hour. 1057 are suffiicent to drive the XT but 1067 clearly sounded better. And the 1068/1075 were even better. The question is what is most practical. The dealership just do not have any other brands to demo except Rotel and NAD. So I will have to buy a Denon 4306 somewhere else and try it out at home. I think my problem is there is not a perfect solution with either of the alternatives. Although someone did mention that RSP-1057 is adequate for now and wait to buy separates after the high-definition format wars have settled and when I get the 804's. I am just trying to figure out what is the smarter use of $$.

This question alone could (and has) keep a thread running for a long time.
Did you read the Audioholics receiver buying guide? It can be seen here. It's really highly dependent on feature set and what you need it to do - the amp section is of course important but not as much because you can always add external amps to complement the internal amps if they aren't up to the job of running your entire surround system - that's what I plan on doing (hence the discussions about Emotiva and IcePower amps - and maybe I'll buy because I'm a taken with the idea of having them more than really needing them ).

My guess is that the new HD audio formats and HDMI 1.3 will take a while before they mature - that's why I decided on getting a 4306 and a 3910 now instead of waiting... and waiting...

BTW, I heard someone over on HTGuide say that the XT's are quite difficult to drive and his lower level Rotel kept on shutting down.

 

[silversurfer]

Adrian, definitely do your homework. I figured if Jeff Rowland and Bel Canto are taking their reputations and use the ICEpower 1000ASP module, they have to be at least decent. There is actually a discussion here(Audioholics) about class d amps.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23333


My apologies for the hijack.

 

[AdrianMills]

Adrian, definitely do your homework. I figured if Jeff Rowland and Bel Canto have taking their reputations and are using the ICEpower 1000ASP module, they have to be at least decent. There is actually a discussion here(Audioholics) about class d amps.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23333

My apologies for the hijack.

No apologies needed I think - at least I thought it was a very constructive outcome.

I saw the thread here and the one or two over on avsforums. What I'm concerned about is this 1dB loss at >=15kHz that I read about. That may not be audible as a sound reduction at those frequencies but if a 0.1dB difference in amp levels can lead people to think that one sounds better than another what does 1dB at 15kHz do to the sound? Maybe this is a problem with the standard 1000ASP and the modified ones are more linear perhaps? At the price of the Beast I can't imagine that it's anything more than a standard unmodified module though - I should have asked Søren about that in our mail exchange earlier today.

 

[silversurfer]

At 15khz? I thought that the drop, according to the graph at the PS Audio site was about 1dB at 20khz. The graph in ICEpower 1000ASP pdf is less than that, and a bit different.

Definitely ask Soren about the module and his thoughts about some of this stuff.

 

[AdrianMills]

At 15khz? I thought that the drop, according to the graph at the PS Audio site was about 1dB at 20khz. The graph in ICEpower 1000ASP pdf is less than that, and a bit different.

Definitely ask Soren about the module and his thoughts about some of this stuff.

I must had delusions or something - I tried to find back the post that stated 15kHz and I can't find it.
I also compared the graphs 500 and 1000asp graphs a little more closely; B&O don't show a 1dB drop at 20kHz but it's getting there and under an open load the drop off starts at about 3kHz getting down by 0.1dB by about 5kHz.

The impedance of the 804S which are the target speakers looks like this;

It drops to <8ohms at around 7kHz but never gets below 5.7ohms in the upper frequencies.

So the question is, will the 804S's relatively high impedance at these higher frequencies help to keep the freq response of the 1000ASP more linear or will the drop from 31ohms at 2.5kHz to about 5.7ohms at 20kHz exacerbate this non-linearity in the amp?

 

[silversurfer]

I think it will work fine.