Help Needed - VSX56-TXI sounds BAD

[Wesley]

I have a new Pioneer VSX-56TXI, with Paradigm Monitor 11 v2 mains, with Paradigm center, surrounds + sub.

For 3 years, these speakers were driven by a Sony STR-DE515. The system sounded great, but I was thinking it would sound better with a new high-tech amp. At this moment, I have my doubts.

My test source is the Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" DVD, which I have listened to dozens of times over the years.

To the casual listener, the VSX may sound OK. But I know what that DVD sounded like with the Sony, and the result from the VSX is definitely not the same.

It's like listening with a head cold and your sinuses are congested. While there is some content in the surrounds, the soundstage is flat and airless. The vocals are muddy. The bass drum comes through, but the notes from Timothy Schmidt's bass guitar sound like muffled thuds. All of the harmonics from the various musical instruments seem to be lost.

Both the DTS and PCM soundtracks give the same result.

I put the VSX thru the auto setup several times. I tried bi-amping the mains.
I tried various changes via the pro and expert setup menus.

I've tried the various music and movie sound fields. I can hear the difference between the fields, but none of them sound GOOD.

Being an electrical engineer, I'm sure the system is set up correctly per the VXS manual. All of the interconnects are proper - good cables and no reversed leads.

With Pioneer's heritage, and with all the capabilities of the VSX, it seemed like "improved sound" would be assured with buying the VSX. I'm not yet convinced.

I would greatly appreciate advice from those who have experience with the VSX line.

 

[Votrax]

The automatic setup adjusts the EQ and gain for each channel. You may have to edit it yourself if it doesn't sound good. I can't imagine it would sound that bad through the automatic setup though. Have to listened to it through analog direct?

 

[Wesley]

Over the past 2 weeks, I have varied every parameter in the setup menus to determine the impact to the overall sound. I've also used every auto setup function. I've played with every control setting.

In the end, I've concluded that the vsx-56txi just has a radically different sound than the Sony amp that I've listened to over the years.

How something sounds is a matter of taste - everyone has their preferences.

No offense to the txi, but I'm glad I still have my Sony.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have a new Pioneer VSX-56TXI, with Paradigm Monitor 11 v2 mains, with Paradigm center, surrounds + sub.

For 3 years, these speakers were driven by a Sony STR-DE515. The system sounded great, but I was thinking it would sound better with a new high-tech amp. At this moment, I have my doubts.

My test source is the Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" DVD, which I have listened to dozens of times over the years.

To the casual listener, the VSX may sound OK. But I know what that DVD sounded like with the Sony, and the result from the VSX is definitely not the same.

Interesting. How did you compare the two amps and determined that the VSX sounds bad?

Are you relying from memory what that DVD sounded like to you in the past? If so, that may be your problem. You really need to do a level matched, bias controlled, side by side listening of the two amps, not relying on historical memories.

In all your trouble shooting, you did check speaker phasing? That all are hooked up with the same phase? One can certainly mess everything up.

Then again, you could have a defective amp too.

 

[Duffinator]

Glad you got it figured out.

There should be a HUGE difference in sound quality between your two receivers. With the better sounding receiver being the Pioneer. Sony is not known for making the best sounding receivers. I owned an older STR DE911 and thought it sounded horrible. Your ears know best and whatever sounds good to you is what you should listen to.

Good Luck

 

[mtrycrafts]

There should be a HUGE difference in sound quality between your two receivers.

Why is that? You know something about either that would make that 'huge' sonic difference?




With the better sounding receiver being the Pioneer.

But he said it is the Sony after all. Cannot have it both ways.

Sony is not known for making the best sounding receivers.

Not the 'best' sounding? Known by whom? Based on what?


Your ears know best

Or, it doesn't. Maybe your brain has tricks in its storage cells?

and whatever sounds good to you is what you should listen to.

Good Luck

Yes, that is so, but.

 

[Votrax]

Are you relying from memory what that DVD sounded like to you in the past? If so, that may be your problem. You really need to do a level matched, bias controlled, side by side listening of the two amps, not relying on historical memories.

I don't think he has to rely on memory if he's been listening to it for the last 5 years.

Over the past 2 weeks, I have varied every parameter in the setup menus to determine the impact to the overall sound. I've also used every auto setup function. I've played with every control setting.

In the end, I've concluded that the vsx-56txi just has a radically different sound than the Sony amp that I've listened to over the years.

How something sounds is a matter of taste - everyone has their preferences.

No offense to the txi, but I'm glad I still have my Sony.

I still don't see how a $250 receiver could sound better than the VSX-56TXi. My Sony ES sounded better than my STR-DE825 and that's not as large as jump as you made. I've got a friend with the VSX-33 Elite and it sounds exactly like my ES. I think I would have to put them side by side to even tell a difference. There's got to be something that's wrong in the setup.

 

[anamorphic96]

I have listened to alot of the Pioneer Elite receivers and noticed a warmer tone to them. Dont the elite receivers use mosfets in the amp section. Maybe youre use to the Sony's brighter balance. Maybe try checking out a Yamaha, Denon, Rotel, or Marantz receiver.
The Yamaha RXV 2400(soon to be 2500) and Denon 3805 might work for you.

Cheers,
Glenn

 

[littleb]

Wesley,

I have a Yamaha htr-5280 with an Axiom speaker set up. I recently decided to upgrade to the Pioneer vsx-1014 everyone seems to be excited about. After about 10 minutes of listening I knew this was a mistake. The quality of sound between the two was astounding. So much so, that I shipped the 1014 back to the vendor.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I don't think he has to rely on memory if he's been listening to it for the last 5 years.


Ah, so he has photographic memory for the smallest of details? And, he can recall those meories of the past with no side by side comparison?
That is a feat unknown to anyone on the planet but to you and him. That would be most valuable to science to know how it is.

But, back to reality in the meantime, he is indeed relying on memory, even if he played it 2 seonds ago and has the words or lerics meorized. Them are the facts. Besides, no evidence has been presented that it is other than memory at work.




I still don't see how a $250 receiver could sound better than the VSX-56TXi.

Firstly, did I indicate or implied that one would sound better? Perhaps no sonic differences can be heard?
But, that needs a bias controlled comparison.

My Sony ES sounded better than my STR-DE825 and that's not as large as jump as you made.

Very subjective indeed. I wionder if that is the case under bias controlled listeing?

I've got a friend with the VSX-33 Elite and it sounds exactly like my ES. I think I would have to put them side by side to even tell a difference. There's got to be something that's wrong in the setup.

Always possible. I think that is why I may have suggested a check of th espeaker phasing? If not, perhaps that was another poster, that is what he needs to check also.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Maybe youre use to the Sony's brighter balance.

Maybe it is not a bright balance? Or, maybe it is and is reflected in the frequency response specs?

 

[mtrycrafts]

After about 10 minutes of listening I knew this was a mistake. The quality of sound between the two was astounding. So much so, that I shipped the 1014 back to the vendor.

Perceptions can be un reliable at times.

 

[Votrax]

I don't think he has to rely on memory if he's been listening to it for the last 5 years.


Ah, so he has photographic memory for the smallest of details? And, he can recall those meories of the past with no side by side comparison?
That is a feat unknown to anyone on the planet but to you and him. That would be most valuable to science to know how it is.

But, back to reality in the meantime, he is indeed relying on memory, even if he played it 2 seonds ago and has the words or lerics meorized. Them are the facts. Besides, no evidence has been presented that it is other than memory at work.




I still don't see how a $250 receiver could sound better than the VSX-56TXi.

Firstly, did I indicate or implied that one would sound better? Perhaps no sonic differences can be heard?
But, that needs a bias controlled comparison.

My Sony ES sounded better than my STR-DE825 and that's not as large as jump as you made.

Very subjective indeed. I wionder if that is the case under bias controlled listeing?

I've got a friend with the VSX-33 Elite and it sounds exactly like my ES. I think I would have to put them side by side to even tell a difference. There's got to be something that's wrong in the setup.

Always possible. I think that is why I may have suggested a check of th espeaker phasing? If not, perhaps that was another poster, that is what he needs to check also.

The first part of this was the only reply I made to you. The rest were to Wesley, so I don't know why your defending yourself. Your attention to detail is very lacking. If he's owned the receiver for years (as he's stated) it would be very obvious if he thought another receiver was different without listening to it one more time.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The first part of this was the only reply I made to you. The rest were to Wesley, so I don't know why your defending yourself. Your attention to detail is very lacking.

I am commenting on posts, period.


If he's owned the receiver for years (as he's stated) it would be very obvious if he thought another receiver was different without listening to it one more time.

That is an assumption you can make not supported by evidence or facts.
It would be very interesting if could demonstrate his claims. Those are testable.

 

[Votrax]

The first part of this was the only reply I made to you. The rest were to Wesley, so I don't know why your defending yourself. Your attention to detail is very lacking.

I am commenting on posts, period.


If he's owned the receiver for years (as he's stated) it would be very obvious if he thought another receiver was different without listening to it one more time.

That is an assumption you can make not supported by evidence or facts.
It would be very interesting if could demonstrate his claims. Those are testable.

I've driven my car for many years and I can get in another and tell the brakes, steering, and suspension feel different without having to get back in mine right after driving the other car. This is the same concept. Maybe I just have sharper senses than most.

 

[Wesley]

First, I'd like to thank everyone who posted useful suggestions. And yes, everything is wired correctly. And, being an engineer and serious audiophile, I'm sure of what I'm doing when it comes to tweaking the VSX's settings.

I'm still agonizing over returning the VSX because I "want" to love it, and I don't want to pay the 25% restocking fee if I return it to Authorized Electronics. Hint - check a seller's return policy before buying!

I have the Sony and VSX side-by-side in my rack. My comparison is done by listening to the same track over and over many times, then plugging the speaker wires into the other unit. I've done this with Eagles Hell Freezes Over, Fleetwood Mac The Dance, James Taylor Live at the Beacon Theater, and various CD's.

At 1:15 into "Learn to be Still" (Eagles), there is a nice 4-beat drum sequence. With the Sony, I can sense the taught drum skin and its harmonics. With the VSX, the sound of this sequence is more of a thump, and the harmonics are barely audible.

With the Sony, Taylor's voice is open and airy, and I can sense the slight strain in his voice from doing so many songs in quick succession. With the VSX, his voice is sort of chesty, and only the fundamental tone comes thru.

When I listen to a track with kettle drums, I can hear the difference. A kettle drum has a "baahhwoomp" sound when it is struck, and you should be able to hear the skin compress then relax. With the VSX, it sounds more like "boomp". If you're not familiar with a kettle drum, it's hard to imagine what I mean.

With a violin, you should be able to hear the fundamental and harmonic tones of the string, the string harmonics mixing in the wood case cavity, and the barely audible grating sound of the bow. With the VSX, the less-obvious sounds are even less obvious.

I have tried every VSX sound field - music and movie. There are dramatic differences between the music fields, and most of them sound so "processed"
that I skip right by them.

As I said previously, how something "sounds" to a person is a matter of tase, and each person likes his/her own "sound". But I enjoy hearing all the sound that the source makes.

All sound originates as analog, and your ears are analog. The source sound is converted from analog to digital conversion when a CD/DVD is made, and then the sound is converted from digital to analog for the speaker drive. Each conversion takes the listener one step further from hearing what the source actually sounded like.

When the amplifier engineer develops the digital processing alogorithms, the result is that engineer's (or company) belief of what processing to perform on each undulation of the sound to make it "sound" good.

I'm sure the VSX is an excellent unit, but how it sounds may not appeal to everyone. I have just a few days left before my 30-day return window closes, so I'll be spending a few more late nights doing side-by-side comparisons.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I've driven my car for many years and I can get in another and tell the brakes, steering, and suspension feel different without having to get back in mine right after driving the other car. This is the same concept. Maybe I just have sharper senses than most.

So, from your car analogy you are implying that since your car is different from another car, then audio components must also be different in sound and that you can tell them apart from years of listening to it? Please think it over carefully.

Maybe your senses are not as sharp as you think? Why is that not just as valid an assumption? You are assuming that it is sharpen than most? How did you test this assumption?
Maybe I can fly too? Read minds? Psychic?

No, your car analogy, while everyone tries to equate it to audio, is silly, not applicable, not even close. Your memory, or anyone's for that matter, is very poor when it comes to sound analysis that you are implying you can do. Not possible, no such evidence exists.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'm still agonizing over returning the VSX because I "want" to love it, and I don't want to pay the 25% restocking fee if I return it to Authorized Electronics. Hint - check a seller's return policy before buying!

WOW

I have the Sony and VSX side-by-side in my rack. My comparison is done by listening to the same track over and over many times, then plugging the speaker wires into the other unit. I've done this with Eagles Hell Freezes Over, Fleetwood Mac The Dance, James Taylor Live at the Beacon Theater, and various CD's.

You are still biased and relying on long term memory as it takes time to swap wires and multiple plays on th esame amp. Are the levels matched to .1dB spl?


At 1:15 into "Learn to be Still" (Eagles), there is a nice 4-beat drum sequence. With the Sony, I can sense the taught drum skin and its harmonics. With the VSX, the sound of this sequence is more of a thump, and the harmonics are barely audible.

Same as above. Your comparison is wanting for major improvements.



I have tried every VSX sound field - music and movie. There are dramatic differences between the music fields, and most of them sound so "processed"
that I skip right by them.

Yes.

As I said previously, how something "sounds" to a person is a matter of tase, and each person likes his/her own "sound". But I enjoy hearing all the sound that the source makes.

Yes, can be true. But, how you compare two components to have meaning about sonic differences, that is another matter and if it is that important to you, you need to do it right enough. You have not so far.


When the amplifier engineer develops the digital processing alogorithms, the result is that engineer's (or company) belief of what processing to perform on each undulation of the sound to make it "sound" good.

Actually, no, not each engineer evaluates the sonics of the DAC but buy by specs.

I'm sure the VSX is an excellent unit, but how it sounds may not appeal to everyone. I have just a few days left before my 30-day return window closes, so I'll be spending a few more late nights doing side-by-side comparisons.

It may not have a sound of its own in a proper comparison, bias controlled, level matched, compariong it without sound field processing added as that alters everything and nothing to compare but which soundfield you prefer, of either unit.

 

[Wesley]

With regard to mtrycrafts' statement "Actually, no, not each engineer evaluates the sonics of the DAC but buy by specs." :

A DAC converts a digital number to an analog signal. The instantaneous number applied to the DAC is the result of an algorithm. An algorithm produces an output based on input parameters and the logic applied to the parameters.

A DAC only responds to what the algorithm feeds it, which is dependent on the person who wrote the algorithm.

 

[mtrycrafts]

With regard to mtrycrafts' statement "Actually, no, not each engineer evaluates the sonics of the DAC but buy by specs." :

A DAC converts a digital number to an analog signal. The instantaneous number applied to the DAC is the result of an algorithm. An algorithm produces an output based on input parameters and the logic applied to the parameters.

A DAC only responds to what the algorithm feeds it, which is dependent on the person who wrote the algorithm.

Yes, but algorithms are standard fares in audio, nothing new, not rocket science for the writers.