help! i gotta beat my kid :D

F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
The problem is in trying to be nice and not bash a product or a person's taste. It's one of those "if you don't have anything nice to say..." situations. :p

But then we end up with a situation where we never made it clear why we disagreed or why we thought one product was of lesser quality or value than another.

It's tough when we're just communcating in text. Things can be very easily misread, or misunderstood, or skipped over by accident. The meaning doesn't always come through clearly. But then again, if we're very blunt and direct, that can be taken the wrong way as well.

Someone asked why we recommended the Boston and Infinity Primus speakers and why we recommended avoiding the Polk speakers. In a word, the reason is "distortion".

With any recording, there is a signal that is sent to the speakers. That signal tells the speakers to produce a certain note (frequency) for a certain length of time at a certain loudness. Any deviation away from exactly what that signal says to play is distortion in one form or another. Maybe the wrong note is played. Maybe additional notes that were not actually in the signal are played (such additional, unintended notes are often the harmonics, and thus, harmonic distortion. Or the cabinet itself might resonate, creating unintended sound from the walls of the speaker's box itself). Maybe the note keeps playing for a little while, even after the signal told it to stop (this relates to "transient response", which are the stops and starts of a note - often called the "attack" and "decay"). Or maybe the note is played too loud or too quiet.

And on top of distortion, there is dispersion - which refers to how evenly the speaker's output is "spread" from side-to-side. Perhaps a speaker's output is very accurate to the signal when you are sitting stright in front of it. But then, as you move to either side of dead straight on, the output changes significantly. There is no strict "right" or "wrong" when it comes to dispersion. But, in general, it's easier to use a speaker that has fairly wide dispersion so that you do not need to sit with your head in a vice! Some people believe the dispersion should be as wide as possible, even going so far as to believe a perfect cylinder or sphere of uniform sound is the best possible situation. The famous NRC research indicated that most people find a fairly wide dispersion to be the best solution, but with some high frequency roll-off as you go very far to either side of the speaker's front.

So why do we not favor the Polk Monitor or TSi speakers? Because they produce many forms of distortion. The frequency response is not linear - meaning that when the signal tells the speakers to play a certain note at a certain loudness, the speaker does not do so. It plays many notes too loud or too quiet. The high frequencies are especially non-linear - meaning that you lose a great amount of detail. There is cabinet noise from the rather cheaply made cabinets. And when you turn up the volume, the speaker responds by compressing - meaning that the movement of the speaker cones does not match what the signal is telling them to do: the movement is restricted at high output levels. In addition to that, the cross-over design is very basic due to keeping the cost as low as possible. As a result, the slopes between drivers are rather shallow, which means that two or more drivers are producing the same sounds over quite a large range of frequencies. This creates problems with cancellations between the drivers that are both producing the same soundwaves. This results in "lobing", which means that as you move from side-to-side, the sound changes rather dramatically.

We prefer the Infinity Primus speakers because they are far more linear. While no speaker is perfectly linear, and while the Primus speakers are still not as linear as some of the best speakers due to keeping the price quite low, they are far more linear than the inexpensive Polk speakers and thus, produce the signal from the recordings much more accurately. They do not have the high frequency attenuation and non-linearity of the Polk speakers, meaning that they much more accurately reproduce the finer details. The cabinets are braced fairly well so that they do not produce much noise of their own. The drivers' movements do not compress as easily, so they are able to play louder without the quality of their sound changing. And the cross-overs are better designed with higher-order slopes so that there is less conflict and interference between two drivers playing the same soundwaves. This results in more even and wider dispersion so that a larger seating area can enjoy the same sound quality from seat to seat.

So, objectively, the Primus speakers are just better speakers. Obviously, that doesn't account for taste. But if a person has not heard more accurate sound, it's awfully hard to speculate as to what that listener would ultimately prefer.

As to my recommendation of subwoofers that might seem expensive - I made those recommendations because spending your money on anything less is genuinely a waste. You would be better off to not buy a subwoofer at all, rather than spend less than $350 on the HSU STF-2 - or preferrably, $500 on the Rythmik FV12. There are cases where it simply requires a certain level of funds and quality to make spending your money worth while. And subwoofers are one such case.

Can you buy a subwoofer for less money? Certainly.

Is it worth your while to do so? No.

All you can get for a lower price in subwoofers is something that is extremely distortion-laden and inaccurate. That doesn't mean there aren't people who've purchased cheap subs and like them. It just means it is another example of never having heard accurate sound and thus, having no frame of reference.

I'm all about using my experience and many purchasing regrets to try and help other folks spend their money ONCE on very good products, rather than do what I did and spend far too much money on multiple systems, all of which were eventually replaced. I'm up to products now that cost in the range of $2000-$3000 PER SPEAKER. I don't do that because I'm rich. I do that because I LOVE home theater and audio and I'm paying for extremely minute improvements at this point. I'm into diminishing returns BIG TIME.

Speakers like the Infinity Primus are, in a way, sickening because they come far closer to the level of quality that I enjoy than they really should have any right to for their very low price point! That's what makes them a stellar value. They are not the "be all, end all". There are improvements to be had for a high price tag, without question. But they do an awful lot "right" for a very low price tag, relatively speaking. That's where my recommendation of them comes from.

For folks like me, it doesn't really matter what someone else chooses to spend his or her money on. I don't really "get" or "lose" anything either way. No one's holding a gun to my head to be here. I'm just here because I love this stuff! But I do hope to save some money for other folks. Why not try to use my experiences and all the money I've spent (and sometimes wasted) over the years to try and make things a little easier for someone else, right?

It doesn't always go as I would hope. And that's fine by me. I'm not "winning" or "losing" anything in this. But I must admit, it does make me happy when I see someone follow some good advice and get a sound system that really delivers high value and high quality, and they're really happy with it, and it lasts them for years and years and years because to get something genuinely "better" would cost oodles and oodels of cash more! It feels good to see someone spend their hard-earned money that way because I know EXACTLY how much money they've saved by avoiding the many, common pitfalls. They got to "skip ahead", which is great! But there's still value in the other side of the experience where people do what I did and simply make their own mistakes, learn from them, and gain the knowledge for themselves. It just costs a lot more in the long run to do things that way :p And if I had found and followed the sort of advice that I'm now trying to pass along to others, I would have saved a TON of money. Would I have learned as much? Maybe not. But I'd have a better sound system and more money in my bank account, so it's hard to say it would have been a bad path to have taken :p
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
You make a lot of claims about distortion etc concerning the Polk Monitor tower speakers, but as far as I've been able to tell there don't exist any good independent measurements of the speakers.

So what are you basing those claims on?

Interestingly, the cheapest speaker in the Monitor line - the Monitor 30 - seemed to do pretty well in the 2007 bookshelf speaker face-off done by Audioholics:
Round 1: Polk Audio Monitor 30 vs. Hsu Research HB-1 — Reviews and News from Audioholics

Some AH reviewers picked the Monitor 30 over the HSU HB-1 and the highly-regarded AV123 X-LS, even saying "The Monitor 30's seemed more spacious and accurate though I imagine that the x-ls' provide a very enjoyable overall listening experience."

So, given that the likes of Clint preferred the Monitor 30 over the AV123 X-LS, it seems rather silly to blast someone for choosing a new pair of Monitor 50s over a used pair of AV123 X-LSs.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Basing it on having owned Polk TSi speakers and doing all my own listening, taking them apart, comparing them to all the other speakers I've had, etc.

Just like all my comments :)

And I'm only recommending the Infinity Primus in this group, since those are the ones I've experienced for myself. I've no beef with the Bostons, but also no glowing recommendation since I've only heard them briefly in store.

And as for any of the other suggestions, I haven't weighed in because I've either not heard them, or don't have any relevant knowledge about them. You won't ever find me recommending an AV123 product though - not necessarily because of the sound, but just cause of the whole history of the company and all ;)

The Polk Monitor series is no longer a current series according to the Polk website. They seem to bounce the name of their lines back and forth every few years - change the look a bit from time to time.

Are Polk's speakers "teh worsterest things EVAR"??? No. There are certainly worse ways to spend your money. But if there's something even better for the same price, I don't see the harm in recommending it.

If you wanna buy Polk, that's fine. I did. I regretted it because for the same amount of money, I've discovered that I could have bought speakers that are objectively better. I'm passing that info along. I'll admit I'd be happier for anyone who makes use of that recommendation. If you don't...oh well. Hopefully you'll still be happy. But if your experience follows mine in any way, in a couple of years, you'll wish you'd bought something else is all...
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
Basing it on having owned Polk TSi speakers and doing all my own listening, taking them apart, comparing them to all the other speakers I've had, etc.
You can measure distortion that accurately with your ears, in your house?

I respect your comments but you're making factual claims you can't back up with data. I would encourage you not to make those claims.
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
As someone who really wanted to buy polk monitors off price point, I can say that once I actually heard them I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole. Muddy across the entire frequency range with highly lacking mid detail. Stating that there are no "good independent measures and tests" is a kind of ridiculous statement, because I have never seen any "good independent measures and tests" regarding speakers and their abilities/enjoyment. Everything I've ever seen has been questionable no matter how hard people try to give things a good shake.
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
As someone who really wanted to buy polk monitors off price point, I can say that once I actually heard them I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole. Muddy across the entire frequency range with highly lacking mid detail. Stating that there are no "good independent measures and tests" is a kind of ridiculous statement, because I have never seen any "good independent measures and tests" regarding speakers and their abilities/enjoyment. Everything I've ever seen has been questionable no matter how hard people try to give things a good shake.
So it's your opinion that it's impossible to get quality measurements of loudspeaker performance, and that its' never been done?

I'm not sure this is the site for you ;)
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
So it's your opinion that it's impossible to get quality measurements of loudspeaker performance, and that its' never been done?

I'm not sure this is the site for you ;)
....seriously? How would you suggest qualitatively measuring speaker quality? There are plenty of parameters you can measure, but they most certainly do not tell the whole story. When you put people in front of things and ask which sounds better you get people buying $2000 interconnects that perform no better than a coat hanger, and a fifth foot on receivers to "dampen vibrations".
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
....seriously? How would you suggest qualitatively measuring speaker quality?
Frequency response, distortion, power compression, spectral decay, resonance, step response, dispersion..

What, do you think loudspeaker design is an exercise in art and not science? Do you think designers and engineers work without measurements?
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
I will concede that there are in fact many measurements that can be taken, but if I handed you a set of everything you just listed, would you be able to tell me if the speaker they described would sound good?

I'm pretty done with this, so I'll take your answer at face value and be done with it.
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
I will concede that there are in fact many measurements that can be taken, but if I handed you a set of everything you just listed, would you be able to tell me if the speaker they described would sound good?

I'm pretty done with this, so I'll take your answer at face value and be done with it.
The measurements will give you a good idea of how good the speaker is, yes. It's no coincidence that speakers with low distortion, quality spectral decay plots, and flat frequency responses usually sound pretty good and the ones that don't have those things don't.

This is a discussion for another thread, though. The point is that FirstReflection is making claims that seem to be based on measured data, but to my knowledge no such data exists.
 
J

jigmoore

Enthusiast
OK B1TCHES, game on!

i went ahead and bought the infinity primus speakers too......all of them.

5 speaker comparo coming up tonight:

top left: paradigm titan v.3
top right: infinity primus 150
middle left: infinity primus 160
middle right: another primus 150
bottom left: kenwood JL-980AV
bottom right: the notorious Polk TSi300

and i'll compare 2 centers:

top: infinity alpha center
bottom: JBL Northridge N-Center

I'm going to do this entire comparison WITH..........this herring.
(sorry....little Monty Python - Holy Grail there)
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
Not very fair comparing a voice-matched Infinity center with the Infinity speakers and a JBL center with the Polks.
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
Not very fair comparing a voice-matched Infinity center with the Infinity speakers and a JBL center with the Polks.
Agreed, try them all out as stereo speakers, and if you're leaning towards the infinity throw the center in to see if that does it for you. The non-matching center could be [but might not be] a detriment to the experience for the others.

A good old fashioned shootout is always fun, enjoy yourself! Hope you end up with something you truly enjoy.
 
J

jigmoore

Enthusiast
edit: ok punks.....i didn't read ahead....i wanted to state my opinion without any bias

my son and i did some mid and high level volumes and quick switching of speakers (yea banana plugs) listening to the following cds:
dire straits-sultans of swing
dada-puzzles
u2-rattle and hum
muse-absolution
brian setzer-dirty boogie

starting from the worst and moving down to what i preferred more:
7) JBL ND310 massive towers. stick a sock in it and turn up the base...it's a house party in here. terrible.
6) JBL ND24 bookshelves. sound was distant...muddy. tin cans.
5) Kenwood. nice punchy boomy bottom end, decent except very harsh mids and totally absent highs
4) Paradigm. incredibly better. cleaner everywhere....a real speaker. excellent everywhere except the mids were still slightly harsh
3) Infinity 150. very similar to the paradigm, but less harsh mids (same mid volumes...just more pleasing).
2) Infinity 160. sounded identical to the 150 but the mids and lows were just fuller (not louder)
1) Polk. mids dropped a bit in volume, but the filling in the highs is incredible, accentuates the stereo effect and very pleasing.

sorry. not being biased....i don't care really since i now own all of them.

to be fair it was very difficult to decide between the polk and the infinity 160. i felt the 160 was more accurate. but at mid levels and normal listening, the accentuated highs are just more pleasing on the polk. the one exception was on the brian setzer, with all the strong brass, the polks highs were a touch harsh and the 160 was better. but on all other songs/albums, the polks were preferred by both of us. plus since the polks are mini towers, they work better for easy placement in the room and don't need shelves built or stands bought...and they're cheaper. so they get the nod.

the take away: who wants to buy some infinity's?
 
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J

jigmoore

Enthusiast
Not very fair comparing a voice-matched Infinity center with the Infinity speakers and a JBL center with the Polks.
the comparo for the centers was done while dancing with the stars (my wife...not me) was on with a dance sequence on TIVO in dolby 5.1. i'm pretty sure the paradigms were still plugged in for mains and the JBL sub was plugged in. i rewound to the same spot and played the same clip a couple times (amid my wife's complaining) while plugging the different centers in. the difference was so obvious it only took a minute or two.
the JBL won hands down. way more mid and lows. night and day.
but it probably had something to do with this, though:



for the main speaker comparo, we ran my wife off to downstairs, invited my 19 year old son (who is an incredibly talented musician and has the most discriminating taste in all senses i've ever witnessed) to come in and we JAMMED. i switched to the mode where it only plays L/R and sub. the sub was on and in the same setting for all the different speakers as we switched back and forth.
 
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G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
For the Infinitys did you try messing around with equalization at all? Not going to say this will put them ahead of the polks, but it might help 'fill in' the highs you felt were lacking. (Also giving the polk's a fair shake with any EQ you think would help them.) Either way, enjoy your new speakers!
 
J

jigmoore

Enthusiast
For the Infinitys did you try messing around with equalization at all? Not going to say this will put them ahead of the polks, but it might help 'fill in' the highs you felt were lacking. (Also giving the polk's a fair shake with any EQ you think would help them.) Either way, enjoy your new speakers!
No. All settings were the same. Its not that highs were missing....its that the polks seem to boost the highs.
 
J

jigmoore

Enthusiast
look what just arrived. now to see if the monitor 50 IS the same thing as the tsi300

 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
look what just arrived. now to see if the monitor 50 IS the same thing as the tsi300

If you have time, could you take some pictures of the crossovers so we can see what the differences are?
 
J

jigmoore

Enthusiast
so tested the monitor 50 next to the tsi300. it was very difficult to tell them apart. except the tsi300 did have a bit more open top end. a little brighter.

but overall.....jim's original advice was best...and i bought a bunch of very nice infinity's for nothing.
 

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