Help choosing new sub

[speakerman39]

I've got the PB12-NSD and I can tell you that it gets down with some music just fine. I love it. I have no complaints whatsoever either for music or HT.

Well Halon I am glad you like your PB12-NSD. You may have the newer version than the one I had. How long have you had it? With ht applications the PB12-NSD really kicked some serious butt. Can't say the same with respect to music. However, the newer version has supposedly made some significant improvements.

 

[speakerman39]

Let's keep it that way too Sheep, no offense.

OMG this is too funny. I agree here though Halon.

 

[thomson405]

Hear good things about MFW-15..but..long wait and made in China..must be arriving
on a slow boat.

 

[thomson405]

But I want one. Prob go with svs.

 

[mazersteven]

But I want one. Prob go with svs.

SVS = Time Tested and Proven.

 

[Adam]

Another recommendation for SVS from me. Many good brands out there, but I've been very happy with both my sub and the people at SVS. Top-notch products and customer service, IMO.

 

[Halon451]

Well Halon I am glad you like your PB12-NSD. You may have the newer version than the one I had. How long have you had it? With ht applications the PB12-NSD really kicked some serious butt. Can't say the same with respect to music. However, the newer version has supposedly made some significant improvements.

I've had mine now since about January/February this year, so not very long I suppose. I'll be keeping it for a good while I can tell ya that.

 

[speakerman39]

I've had mine now since about January/February this year, so not very long I suppose. I'll be keeping it for a good while I can tell ya that.

Yeah, you probably have the improved version. Hope to get to hear one some day.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

I always find it weird when someone says a subwoofer is either good for HT or music but not both. If its not good in one area, its not going to be good in the other. If, for example, it isn't good at music, can't keep up with the bass, drumkicks sound mushy or what have you, then it's going to sound that way with explosions and cannon fire and anything you'd want to hear in a HT situation, too.

 

[zhimbo]

I always find it weird when someone says a subwoofer is either good for HT or music but not both.

If it doesn't have very low extension, it may still be good for 98% of music, but you'll miss out on Big Action LFE in home theater applications.

The reverse pattern presumably means that you can have lower standards for sound quality on explosions and sub-audible rumbles than on music. I assume that's what that means, anyway.

 

[speakerman39]

I always find it weird when someone says a subwoofer is either good for HT or music but not both. If its not good in one area, its not going to be good in the other. If, for example, it isn't good at music, can't keep up with the bass, drumkicks sound mushy or what have you, then it's going to sound that way with explosions and cannon fire and anything you'd want to hear in a HT situation, too.

Well, you make a good argument. But, keep in mind that extension is needed for ht applications. When a sub is tuned real low it is a difficult task to have it play that deep while still offering lots of output in the midbass region of 60-90 hz where most of the music action is at. Subs that can do this superbly always cost more. Personally, I will give up some extension in order to gain more output in the midbass regions. I prefer a very tight, punchy, well articulated bass line that also has distinctness in the transient response. That is, I want to hear different low notes as opposed to sounding like only one note. There are differences as I have seen and heard it for myself. However, there is NOT one golden rule that defines all subs. There are other things such as the listening environment and where the sub(s) is placed. Then, there is also the design of the sub itself. Generally speaking, sealed subs offer more accuracy but do so at the expense of output. Vented boxes will yield more output but as the expense of accuracy. Now, I am only speaking in general terms as there are always exceptions.

 

[Warpdrv]

I always find it weird when someone says a subwoofer is either good for HT or music but not both. If its not good in one area, its not going to be good in the other. If, for example, it isn't good at music, can't keep up with the bass, drumkicks sound mushy or what have you, then it's going to sound that way with explosions and cannon fire and anything you'd want to hear in a HT situation, too.

Shadow, I know what your saying, but I think its more like Both are good, but some sub designs are a bit better for one scenario then others... I think it also lies greatly on the design of the driver as well as the design...

In my bedroom, I have had both the SVS PB12 Plus and now have replaced that with a JL F112, and I have A/B'd them extensively.

The SVS is fantastic in both territories music/movies, but I think it excels at movies where low extension seriously adds to the experience. The SVS has a touch more distortion and bit less control which really can seriously shake things up. I actually like a bit of distortion in a sub to a degree for HT. In my great room I have Dual SVS Plus/2's and they are amazing for HT, but they just have a touch more distortion then I prefer for music, but they will scare the hell out of you.....

The JL F112 on the other hand, is quite simply amazing for music, it is articulate, incredibly powerful, totally controlled and graceful... which to me is what I prefer for music. It also goes really low for a sealed sub as small as it is, easily into the teens, but the rolloff is quite steep, therefore limiting the output in the teens and the 20hz range but the control and remarkable accuracy is there for musical range 30hz on up to 80hz... possibly above, if not crossed over as low. The power coupled with the incredible driver control and excursion are what provide the massive output of this sub, seriously its awe inspiring. JL really hit a bullseye with their Fathom line. With HT though, the subs restrictions are acknowledged easily in low output, where the early rolloff of a sealed sub has its restrictions and the protection limiters start to kick in and it hesitates at extremely low output.

There are only a few drivers that will outdo the build quality of a JL driver like the W7, TC-Sounds makes/made some that have the control, linearity, dynamics, all put together with extreme excursion make them the best drivers made to date... I give you the TC-Sounds/Audiopulse LMS-5400. There is yet to be a driver made that has low distortion and can maintain its linearity while still providing high excursion that produced the cleanest bass to date. (of coarse depending on the box design).

I have 2 TC-Sounds drivers, that I have modelled extensively, and will be building to replace my SVS Plus/2's.

Here are 2 different designs of the same driver, one sealed and one ported/vented tuned to 15hz. Notice the sealed and how early it starts to roll off, compared to the ported. Ported has huge output all the way down to just below 20hz. With a driver in a properly designed ported/vented box that has incredible control and enough amplification, one could achieve both, an incredibly musical sub, as well as scary as hell for HT that will shake things but still maintain contol the way it was meant in the first place...
I'm hoping to achieve that with my upcoming ported build with these drivers.

Ported/Vented

Sealed

 

[speakerman39]

Shadow, I know what your saying, but I think its more like Both are good, but some sub designs are a bit better for one scenario then others... I think it also lies greatly on the design of the driver as well as the design...

In my bedroom, I have had both the SVS PB12 Plus and now have replaced that with a JL F112, and I have A/B'd them extensively.

The SVS is fantastic in both territories music/movies, but I think it excels at movies where low extension seriously adds to the experience. The SVS has a touch more distortion and bit less control which really can seriously shake things up. I actually like a bit of distortion in a sub to a degree for HT. In my great room I have Dual SVS Plus/2's and they are amazing for HT, but they just have a touch more distortion then I prefer for music, but they will scare the hell out of you.....

The JL F112 on the other hand, is quite simply amazing for music, it is articulate, incredibly powerful, totally controlled and graceful... which to me is what I prefer for music. It also goes really low for a sealed sub as small as it is, easily into the teens, but the rolloff is quite steep, therefore limiting the output in the teens and the 20hz range but the control and remarkable accuracy is there for musical range 30hz on up to 80hz... possibly above, if not crossed over as low. The power coupled with the incredible driver control and excursion are what provide the massive output of this sub, seriously its awe inspiring. JL really hit a bullseye with their Fathom line. With HT though, the subs restrictions are acknowledged easily in low output, where the early rolloff of a sealed sub has its restrictions and the protection limiters start to kick in and it hesitates at extremely low output.

There are only a few drivers that will outdo the build quality of a JL driver like the W7, TC-Sounds makes/made some that have the control, linearity, dynamics, all put together with extreme excursion make them the best drivers made to date... I give you the TC-Sounds/Audiopulse LMS-5400. There is yet to be a driver made that has low distortion and can maintain its linearity while still providing high excursion that produced the cleanest bass to date. (of coarse depending on the box design).

I have 2 TC-Sounds drivers, that I have modelled extensively, and will be building to replace my SVS Plus/2's.

Here are 2 different designs of the same driver, one sealed and one ported/vented tuned to 15hz. Notice the sealed and how early it starts to roll off, compared to the ported. Ported has huge output all the way down to just below 20hz. With a driver in a properly designed ported/vented box that has incredible control and enough amplification, one could achieve both, an incredibly musical sub, as well as scary as hell for HT that will shake things but still maintain contol the way it was meant in the first place...
I'm hoping to achieve that with my upcoming ported build with these drivers.

Ported/Vented

Sealed

Very well written warp. This kinda sums up what I was more or less saying in my previous post only written much better. Good luck with your TC-Sounds project. Please keep us posted once you start it. It will gives us all an opportunity to learn something.

 

[Warpdrv]

Very well written warp. This kinda sums up what I was more or less saying in my previous post only written much better. Good luck with your TC-Sounds project. Please keep us posted once you start it. It will gives us all an opportunity to learn something.

Thanks speakerman39..... I knew what you were trying to get at... just thought I would expand a bit....

There are very few subs on the market that can attain, much less produce these goals, one such sub on the market is the SVS Ultra 13... It has been measured to be extremely accurate and linear maintaining that articulation for music, and yet has the ability to reach extremely low into the depths and can perform fortuitously during the heavy demands of HT that keep coming out...

Movies these days show no mercy.... They are a true test of what can be achieved, but to also be controlled during the toughest of musical passages is the makings of a great sub...

I'll hopefully be getting started this summer... time permitting, I have so many projects... this is to be one of them... progress will be documented. The drivers I have are TC-2000's, not the LMS-5400's, but they are no slouch either... They measure very well, and for >$300 each, well worth the investment. The Ultra 13 drivers are a derivative of TC-Sounds drivers, tweaked, modified and they are simply amazing... I could only hope to come close to what SVS has done with the Ultra13.

 

[Sheep]

If the subwoofer can't handle upper bass and lower bass well, it isn't a good subwoofer. That is a much simpler way to put it then to pussy foot around, giving it a classification such as "musical" or "HT". A subwoofer can do both, so there is no such thing. Anything that doesn't extend low and maintain upper bass SPL isn't a good subwoofer. And just in case someone brings it up, MBMs are not the answer.

SheepStar

 

[speakerman39]

Thanks speakerman39..... I knew what you were trying to get at... just thought I would expand a bit....

There are very few subs on the market that can attain, much less produce these goals, one such sub on the market is the SVS Ultra 13... It has been measured to be extremely accurate and linear maintaining that articulation for music, and yet has the ability to reach extremely low into the depths and can perform fortuitously during the heavy demands of HT that keep coming out...

Movies these days show no mercy.... They are a true test of what can be achieved, but to also be controlled during the toughest of musical passages is the makings of a great sub...

I'll hopefully be getting started this summer... time permitting, I have so many projects... this is to be one of them... progress will be documented. The drivers I have are TC-2000's, not the LMS-5400's, but they are no slouch either... They measure very well, and for >$300 each, well worth the investment. The Ultra 13 drivers are a derivative of TC-Sounds drivers, tweaked, modified and they are simply amazing... I could only hope to come close to what SVS has done with the Ultra13.

Warp I appreciate you clearing that up. I would give anything to own an Ultra 13. Maybe one day I will who knows.