Hegel H90 vs Denon AVR-X4700H (Stereo use)

[PENG]

3. Measure the Hegel H90 with REW.
ought?

If you get around to do it, I am sure you will get something like the one below that was for AVR-3805, I couldn't find the one for the AVR-X3400H yet, but they would look the same, using analog input and in pure direct mode.

This is just the frequency response, but I think most will agree the most obvious "sound signature" difference would be in the frequency response anyway.

I don't remember which one was the AVR, but could look it up if you are interested but there is no way I would believe anyone can tell the difference as the two FR curves practically overlapped on top of each. There would obvious be different in distortions but again would be negligible.

 

[PENG]

I have absolutely no trouble believing a quality integrated amp sounds better than an AVR in two channel. I had a similar experience when listening to Peachtree amp compared to an AVR.

Sure, me too, in sighted comparisons, no strict apple to apple AB test protocol used. I can quote Dr. Toole multiple times about DBT (yes, he meant it for loudspeakers) must be used for such things to be taken seriously, if it would change minds. Problem is, I doubt it would.

 

[PENG]

Go look at his video and the review he posted about separates and multi-channel avr's. No, i dont feel like looking for the post or vid, but it was probably only a year ago. We discussed this before on the forum and this was one of the reason he made the video and post's.
He clearly stated most multi-channel avr's are not going to sound as good as a unit made purely for stereo reproduction. Due to the fact all of the components crammed into an avr, all crammed together, compromises have to be made with all the electronic components necessary to make an avr. While designing a strictly stereo component usually requires less electronic components and there is more room to work with. Plus it affords the luxury of less parts used more money can be spent on better internal parts. Sorry long winded i know, im tired and probably veering off track, but i think you get my point.

I get it Lovin, you being skeptical, totally understand. And i don't blame if you don't recall Genes video or post and don't feel like searching for it at this hour. Just shoot Gene a message, im sure he will be happy to give you a quick answer.

I am quite sure I watch that video and had the same impression as HD. In general, it makes sense that more expensive dedicated two channel separates would sound better than AVRs, all else being equal.

What does not make logical sense are the comments like "night and day", much better, tighter bass, huge soundstage vs narrow/small, heard things never heard before, full body vs skinny kind of difference when comparing a mid range integrated amp to a higher mid range AVR. If you read Gene's review on the SR8015 and Yamaha's CX-A5200/MX-A5200, you wouldn't think that Gene would believe he could tell the two systems apart in a DBT would you?

 

[ski2xblack]

Hegel doesn't list a 4ohm spec just 60W 8ohm. It's possible the two units are more closely power matched at 4ohms than I first thought?

Maybe, but that would imply some power supply trickery. I have an amp rated at 50w that can deliver >250w into 4 Ohms. Is the Hegel a class g/h type by chance?

Even if what you suggest is the case, the Denon should not adversely affect the sound unless it was clipping. Or a lemon from the get-go, a greater than zero probability.

 

[PENG]

VMPS's posts got me motivated a little so I just spent over an hour comparing using the following:

AVR-X4400H using HEOS to stream my Dave Brubeck Time out album in 88.2 kHz/24 bit vs
Marantz SC-7 and SM-7 and Oppo Sonica DAC, also stream via Ethernet network
Focal Electra 1028 Be

That was not apple to apple obviously, I just did it for fun as I had some free time.

I tried very hard to hear any difference, especially in the bass range as VMPS heard such a big difference between his 4700 and the H90. No such luck, both sounded fantastic, so good that could listen to either all day at near reference level.

Prior to that I also spent some time listening to the Denon using Eco On vs Eco Off (since VMPs mentioned it). That one was easy to do by using the button on the remote, so the effects should be almost instantaneous and there was no need to worry about level matching etc. To my surprise, I could not hear a difference either until I cranked the volume up well pass -10. The Time-out album does seem to have some good dynamics (the drums), but probably not high enough to put Eco On at disadvantage sufficiently.

Having spent so much on so many separate gear, I would love to hear any kind of difference that others claimed they had, but it just never worked for me. If I wanted to hear better sound, I would have to use my "better speakers" such as the 1028 and the BMR, and/or my collection of discs and/or digital files that I considered represent the best recording quality I was able to find, not by swapping out amps/preamps. Anecdotally, I did find it easier to hear the difference between my separate DACs, and even easier if compared to the ones in my AVRs/AVPs. At least that's what I thought, and I won't be surprised with the different results if I did such comparisons if the DBT protocols were followed.

 

[PENG]

Maybe, but that would imply some power supply trickery. I have an amp rated at 50w that can deliver >250w into 4 Ohms. Is the Hegel a class g/h type by chance?

Even if what you suggest is the case, the Denon should not adversely affect the sound unless it was clipping. Or a lemon from the get-go, a greater than zero probability.

I am sure he heard the difference, just not sure why, and I agree with you that power would likely not be the issue, 8 Ohm or 4 Ohm.

One good thing about measurements is, no human involved except the operator of the instrument, in this case the same AP, though likely different models/versions. So we can again, refer to Stereophile's measurements on the bigger brother:

Note that the 150 W 8 Ohm and 250 W 4 Ohm rated H160 actually started to clip at about 200 W Vs the Denon's 172.6 W. So we can be sure that the 60 W 8 Ohm rated would likely clip at 80 W or higher but very unlikely higher than 100 W.

H160:

AVR-X4700H:

 

[stalag2005]

Benchmark Media Systems, Inc.

Benchmark Media Systems, Inc. is a privately-held manufacturer of precision audio electronics for broadcast, recording, and Hi-Fi applications.

benchmarkmedia.com

How would their stuff compare to the Hegel?

 

[lovinthehd]

Benchmark Media Systems, Inc.

Benchmark Media Systems, Inc. is a privately-held manufacturer of precision audio electronics for broadcast, recording, and Hi-Fi applications.

benchmarkmedia.com

How would their stuff compare to the Hegel?

Probably sound about the same, but the Benchmark is somewhat the benchmark to date in terms of spec.

Truthslayer (appropriate name)

Lovin, here is one of the videos i was referring to. Do Expensive AV Receivers Sound Better than Cheap Ones? - YouTube
He wrote a post around the same time on here, but i don't see a need to look for it. I think you know what i was getting at. I'm sure i didn't quote him word for word, rather just trying to get my point across.

Killdozer, Not sure who your confusing me with, don't know who Colin is. So calling me an idiot just shows who the real idiot is. I can give you a pass for your confusion. You should also consider, most people don't feel the need to argue back and fourth, and when you do that on here, im not sure why you think that makes you the victor, just because someone may not feel the need to continue an argument.

As far as making a statement about being medicated and shouldn't be operating equipment. In no way was that whining. That was simply true, it was obvious by my post to Lovin, that i was not being clear and probably should have waited to post. I have no problem admitting when im wrong. So there is no need for you to continue with your arrogance. I am not here to argue, but if that's what you feel like you need to do, please continue on. I'm sure someone else will be happy to argue with you, just not me.

I watched part of that again to refresh my memory, discussing lower end vs higher end avr differences in terms of performance. How does that apply to the Hegel vs Denon comparo? Seems like the last time you glossed over the details in a similar conversation and alluded to something that wasn't actually said (thus your screenname?). You did mention then you were a big fan of Hegel based on a friend/dealer or something. I get that you prefer the Hegel, that's great, but the testing done by vmps just isn't convincing as it has several flaws.

 

[PENG]

Benchmark Media Systems, Inc.

Benchmark Media Systems, Inc. is a privately-held manufacturer of precision audio electronics for broadcast, recording, and Hi-Fi applications.

benchmarkmedia.com

How would their stuff compare to the Hegel?

On paper there is no comparison, the H90 is an integrated amp with build in DAC. For separate power amps, I would rank Hegel's on par with the likes of Bryston, Class'e, and ATI' s top models, but Benchmark's, as HD alluded to, is really the current benchmark for specs and measurements. No power amps that I know if measured as good as their AHB2, not even closed.

Based on specs and measurements, one can say with almost absolute certainty that it has no sound signature, as its distortions and noise were so low that it could barely be measured by the AP measuring instrument.

 

[mazersteven]

I would rank Hegel's on par with the likes of Bryston

Take it easy Cowboy. They might be good but Ain't no Bryston

 

[PENG]

Take it easy Cowboy. They might be good but Ain't no Bryston

I would have no hesitation trading my lovely 4B SST for a H30.

 

[Sachb]

On paper there is no comparison, the H90 is an integrated amp with build in DAC. For separate power amps, I would rank Hegel's on par with the likes of Bryston, Class'e, and ATI' s top models, but Benchmark's, as HD alluded to, is really the current benchmark for specs and measurements. No power amps that I know if measured as good as their AHB2, not even closed.

Based on specs and measurements, one can say with almost absolute certainty that it has no sound signature, as its distortions and noise were so low that it could barely be measured by the AP measuring instrument.

Doesn't Denon X4700H have its own DAC?

Source: "Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review | Page 32 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum" https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x4700h-2020-avr-review.14188/page-32

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

 

[killdozzer]

In most cases, I would tend to lean toward what you are saying. That's why when the Denon 4700 sounded thin I went in and setup Audyssey, added DEQ and made as many modifications as possible to try to enhance the Denon sound. So what happened after I put all that time into the Denon and switched back to the Hegel H90?

The Hegel sounded full, rich, amazingly dynamic and beat the Denon sound without having to do anything but turn it on. It's an amazing sonic difference that I did not fully understand until I put these two units side by side with the BMR's.

I know this tends to bust some peoples belief systems. They think everything sounds the same with enough EQ. But after this comparison, I can see that's not always the case.

It's not about the belief system. Hegel doesn't have anything magical or inexplicable in their design. That's why I'm saying it could be done. The sound you hear and like doesn't originate from the amplification section of your Hegel amp, that would point to a fault. It's being made before the amplification section, in the preamp or in whatever is between the amplification section and the binding posts for your speakers. Even if tone controls of the Denon itself are not enough to achieve this, you could still do it with extra tone controls. Any type of sound could be achieved through tuning or through effects.

Anyway, as I said, I have no reason to advise you not to follow your ear/heart and go with the Hegel. If you found what you're looking for, than that's it. I had people convincing me both because of measurements and listening sessions not to buy LS50. Today I'm happy I didn't listen to them.

There is perhaps only one little warning I can give you. On little "heads up".

These sound signatures are meant to sweep you of your feet out of the box. This is why in a large audio store, with hundreds of products lying around, people who don't know much about brands and equipment, always buy Bose. But how much of this being swept off your feet can you really take?

That's what I tried to tell you with that idea of fuller+fuller. The very thing that attracted you to Hegel might annoy you once you realize you can't unhear it.

I had a lot of sound signature (and visual signature, mind you) equipment and what usually got to me in the end was not being able to turn off the signature. Even back when I was a kid, I remember choosing a Sony Mega Bass "micro hi-fi" set because it sounded the fullest in the shop. Later on I couldn't stand it. My friend had a NAD amp with 2x35wpch and a Marantz amp with 2x40wpch, a negligible difference, the master volume potnetiometer on NAD was set to achieve max at 1/3 way up, the rest was soft clipping. The one on Marantz was set to give max near the end of the knob's way. He always had a feeling that Marantz was too weak for his speakers.

OTOH, if you think you're not a listener that would mind the specific way the Hegel operates, once again, go for it. And I'll tell you one huge advantage here; brands like Hegel have a much stronger pride of ownership attached to it among audiophiles and this goes to you advantage because it hold value second hand if you ever decide to sell it.

 

[killdozzer]

I have absolutely no trouble believing a quality integrated amp sounds better than an AVR in two channel. I had a similar experience when listening to Peachtree amp compared to an AVR.

Peachtree is a very poorly performing unit:

Review and Measurements of Peachtree Nova Pre

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Peachtree Nova DAC and Preamplifier. It belongs to my son who bought it years back prior to upgrading to the Oppo HA-1. Peachtree site still show it as current but I don't think it is available in distribution now. It cost US $999 when it first...

www.audiosciencereview.com

As stated many times before; what one likes, one likes. But it's not the case of quality integrated. Peachtree is crapy.

 

[killdozzer]

For the rest of the flock:

 

[PENG]

Doesn't Denon X4700H have its own DAC?

Source: "Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review | Page 32 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum" https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x4700h-2020-avr-review.14188/page-32

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

FYI, the person who posted those had mistaken the zone2 DAC for the main. For the main zones, it is the AKM's AK4458, that has similar specs to Yamaha RX-A2080's Sabe ES9006 or 9007. There were follow posts that clarified the mistake.

Yamaha used a lower grade DAC too, but it is the PCM5101 that has 2 dB lower THD+N.

By the way, my main point was, if we were talking about amps, i.e. preamp and power amp, then an apple to apple comparison would be to use analog input in direct/or pure direct mode with no bass management applied. It wouldn't be the only way, but it is a simple way to avoid disputes and second guessing on the possible causes if differences were heard, or not heard..

If you are comparing the units as a whole, as VMPS explained later then okay, but it should be stated as such. It is much easier to understand why as a whole unit, the H90 is, and is expected to anyway to sound better, all else being equal and if good quality source/contents are used, but still, the difference he described is, as HD alluded to........, and I commented already so I shouldn't beat the dead horse.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

@PENG - I took your advice and ran REW on the Hegel H90 vs the Denon 4700. What I found was the Hegel had a flatter frequency response than the Denon 4700 when Stereo mode was used.

However, once I switched to "Direct" mode on the Denon 4700 and elevated it's volume to reach 75dB again the freq. response was extremely close to the Hegel H90.

With that said I'm not sure why the Hegel offers tighter bass and enhanced clarity in my listening tests? Could it have anything to do with its high current design or massive damping factor?

Here are some other interesting facts.

Energy Usage:
Hegel H90 - 60 Watts @ 70dB
Denon 4700 Direct - 132 Watts @ 70dB
Energy use measured by Kill-A-Watt. Both units level matched with REW Pink noise at 70dB.

Cooling
Hegel runs 8 degrees F cooler than Denon 4700 after 20 min. at 70dB. Top of Hegel barely warm while Denon top retains the temperature more. I imagine a longer term would offer higher heat results. However, both units only set for Stereo so Denon will run cooler than with a 9.2 setup.

 

[mazersteven]

Hegel H90 DAC- integrated amplifier ($2000 USD)

For that price tag for 60 watts I would want to believe it sounds better to.

I thought Hegel was only true in fairy tales
Meant for someone else but not for me
Hegel was out to get me
That's the way it seemed
Disappointment Denon all of my dreams
Then I saw Hegel's face, now I'm a believer
Not a trace, of doubt in my mind
I'm in love, and I'm a BELIEVER
I couldn't leave Hegel if I tried

 

[VMPS-TIII]

I bought the Hegel on sale and then was able to get a 10% discount which took it to $1259.
No need to pay retail.

 

[mazersteven]

I bought the Hegel on sale and then was able to get a 10% discount which took it to $1259.
No need to pay retail.

It never matters what you paid in your head it's always going to be a $2,000 60 watt amp