Heat dissapation; cabinet warmth-would a fan be a worthwhile investment? (Yamaha RX-A3020)

[metalmancpa]

I'm only a few days into ownership with the RX-A3020. Before I get to the thread topic, a few quick impressions early on.

YPAO setup made everything too bright - thank goodness for individual speaker tweaking with db levels and a few EQ parameters. Very happy with the sound. Volume wise, when I get to the -10db to 0db levels it's pretty loud, and I have no intention of pushing much over 0db to the 16.5db levels, although like a speedy car, that test drive is tempting.

The unit runs warm. The cabinet gets very warm to the touch, and just by putting your hand over the top you can feel the heat. I recently got an HP computer and purposefully upgraded to the water-cooled option, and this PC is the coolest and quietest one I've owned.I expected the 3020 to run warm/hot based on reviews and the specs, but as a techie I'm always concerned with heat. Would rigging up a fan to push air over the power supply lower the temperature enough over time to increase life expectancy of the unit?

 

[j_garcia]

If you have your receiver at 0, you are already in territory that seems excessive IMO. Receivers are designed for convection cooling so pushing air over it is not necessary, however providing some ventilation holes in the cabinet at the top to let the heat escape would be a good idea since what you describe is too warm. Fans and amps are usually not a good combination noise wise, nor is a fan in the main listening area.

 

[ImcLoud]

John hit the nail on the head, get the hot air out of the cabinet, convection will do this just fine, they go out of their way not to add fans to your equipment... I had some heat related issues with a yammy avr, what a pian, it ended in with the end of the unit.. Now I like separates, my emo amps never even get warm to the touch...

 

[JMJVK]

Contrary to computer heat which mainly emanates from chips which can burn real easy, the bulk of amplifiers and receiver' heat emanates from toroidal coils, which are made of much bigger and more resistant materials.. They are expected to run warm. Many enthusiasts won't listen to music until these have had a few minutes of warm-up. I don't know how much of this is a subjective impression from listeners, and how much of this is scientifically validated, but I tend to believe there's something to it.

You can cool your amp, but don't over-do it. Don't go changing your heat-sinks for heat-piped designs with lapped bottoms and thermal paste. Just give a few inches of clear space on both sides of your amp, and leaves a space of 6" or more on the top, Favor an open cabinet design, and you'll be good. These thing are designed by qualified engineers, and if active cooling is required, it will be built-in from the get-go, and will be done in a way that avoids thermal instability.

 

[M Code]

I'm only a few days into ownership with the RX-A3020. Before I get to the thread topic, a few quick impressions early on.

YPAO setup made everything too bright - thank goodness for individual speaker tweaking with db levels and a few EQ parameters. Very happy with the sound. Volume wise, when I get to the -10db to 0db levels it's pretty loud, and I have no intention of pushing much over 0db to the 16.5db levels, although like a speedy car, that test drive is tempting.

The unit runs warm. The cabinet gets very warm to the touch, and just by putting your hand over the top you can feel the heat. I recently got an HP computer and purposefully upgraded to the water-cooled option, and this PC is the coolest and quietest one I've owned.I expected the 3020 to run warm/hot based on reviews and the specs, but as a techie I'm always concerned with heat. Would rigging up a fan to push air over the power supply lower the temperature enough over time to increase life expectancy of the unit?

Yamaha recommends @ least 4-5" of clearance for the L/R sides and top cover. Also do not stack any component on top...The reliability of electronic components decreases significantly whenever they are exposed to high temperatures...Just my $0.05...

 

[mike c]

if it has switched outlets, you can do this:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/general-av-discussions/39279-receiver-cooling-search-words-pc-fan-12v-adapter.html#post351408

it can be right on top of the receiver or on your cabinet walls (pulling hot air out)

 

[PENG]

I'm only a few days into ownership with the RX-A3020. Before I get to the thread topic, a few quick impressions early on.

YPAO setup made everything too bright - thank goodness for individual speaker tweaking with db levels and a few EQ parameters. Very happy with the sound. Volume wise, when I get to the -10db to 0db levels it's pretty loud, and I have no intention of pushing much over 0db to the 16.5db levels, although like a speedy car, that test drive is tempting.

The unit runs warm. The cabinet gets very warm to the touch, and just by putting your hand over the top you can feel the heat. I recently got an HP computer and purposefully upgraded to the water-cooled option, and this PC is the coolest and quietest one I've owned.I expected the 3020 to run warm/hot based on reviews and the specs, but as a techie I'm always concerned with heat. Would rigging up a fan to push air over the power supply lower the temperature enough over time to increase life expectancy of the unit?

I added a fan to cool my AV8801 from running temperature of 42 to 45 deg. C to 33 to 37 deg C (shooting my Infra red thermometer though the top). Mid 40's deg C are actually fine but lower temperature = longer life for electronics, so I highly recommend you install a $15 quiet fan to protect your >1K investment whether you need to or not.

 

[PENG]

Contrary to computer heat which mainly emanates from chips which can burn real easy, the bulk of amplifiers and receiver' heat emanates from toroidal coils, which are made of much bigger and more resistant materials.. They are expected to run warm. Many enthusiasts won't listen to music until these have had a few minutes of warm-up. I don't know how much of this is a subjective impression from listeners, and how much of this is scientifically validated, but I tend to believe there's something to it.

You can cool your amp, but don't over-do it. Don't go changing your heat-sinks for heat-piped designs with lapped bottoms and thermal paste. Just give a few inches of clear space on both sides of your amp, and leaves a space of 6" or more on the top, Favor an open cabinet design, and you'll be good. These thing are designed by qualified engineers, and if active cooling is required, it will be built-in from the get-go, and will be done in a way that avoids thermal instability.

Please don't listen to those nonsense, some (actually just a few) AVRs do use toroidal transformer instead of EI core ones. That toroidal term simply refers to the shape of the transformer core so the coils wound on it would be in a toroidal shape. Transformers, toroidal or not, typically are highly efficient and will operate in the 90's % so they don't generate too much heat. For AVRs, expect most of the heat come from the Microproccessor chips, transistors, especially power transistors. Even a preamp or prepro with small power transformers could run very hot.

Yes, electronics need to warm up a litte to perform at their best, but no one is telling anyone to refrigerate their gear either. Keep the operating temperature (enclosure top) at below 40's can't hurt but help. At the circuit board level it will always be above ambient, and at the chips, transistor juncions etc., will be way warmer/hotter anyway.

 

[Rickster71]

I added a fan to cool my AV8801 from running temperature of 42 to 45 deg. C to 33 to 37 deg C (shooting my Infra red thermometer though the top). Mid 40's deg C are actually fine but lower temperature = longer life for electronics, so I highly recommend you install a $15 quiet fan to protect your >1K investment whether you need to or not.

+1
I couldn't agree more. I've added quiet fans to almost all my electronics.

 

[OKLAGMCRUISER]

Cool Components: Cooling Products for Audio Video & Home Theater Components

 

[Stanton]

I've never had/known a Yamaha receiver that over-heated; they are typically well-designed, especially the high-end models like the one you have. I'm not a fan of active cooling where (typical) stereo gear is concerned, but I have always kept my amp/receiver on the top shelf of my cabinet WITH holes drilled in the top/cover to allow for additional ventilation.

 

[metalmancpa]

I've never had/known a Yamaha receiver that over-heated; they are typically well-designed, especially the high-end models like the one you have. I'm not a fan of active cooling where (typical) stereo gear is concerned, but I have always kept my amp/receiver on the top shelf of my cabinet WITH holes drilled in the top/cover to allow for additional ventilation.

Other than noise, what reason would you have for not liking active cooling? In my estimation I can't see where it would hurt. With the opening on the top, placing a fan to pull heat out would have to cool the unit. I suppose it could somehow cycle more dust into the unit, but not really sure.

 

[PENG]

Other than noise, what reason would you have for not liking active cooling? In my estimation I can't see where it would hurt. With the opening on the top, placing a fan to pull heat out would have to cool the unit. I suppose it could somehow cycle more dust into the unit, but not really sure.

Exactly, down side is just the noise and obviously the initial effort in setting it up. if you lower the speed enough you won't hear it from 10 ft away even if the fan is not of the super quiet type as long as it is not the noisiest type. I set my fan to the lowest possible speed and it is still able to cool my 8801 down by at least 5 deg. C As for the dust, the fan keeps air moving so there may be less chance for dust to settle and that may offset the concern, but I am not really sure either. I have not seen evidence of more dust though.

 

[herbu]

Yamaha recommends @ least 4-5" of clearance for the L/R sides and top cover. Also do not stack any component on top...

OP, I suggest following the manufacturer recommendation is a safe bet. The value of more than that is debatable.

Manufacturers will test their products in various environmental conditions, (ie. temp & humidity). "Normal" ambient air temp is considered 70degF. So if a Mfg recommends "@ least 4-5" of clearance for the L/R sides and top cover", it means they have found that condition in 70degF ambient air to be adequate for product operation and reliability.

Testing at ~95degF ambient air gave us a 2x acceleration factor for reliability testing. 24/7 testing also gave an acceleration factor, depending on your projected normal power-on-hours per day. (8 hours per day "normal" would mean 24 hour continuous testing would give you a 3x acceleration.) So in total, 24/7 testing at 95degF would give a 6x acceleration factor... (7 days actual testing would simulate 42 days "normal" customer usage). Add in to that some humidity cycles and thermal cycles, (very hot to very cold), and mechanical stresses, (drop & vibration), and you get a pretty good suite of tests to reveal weak design areas.

After all that, if the manufacturer says, "My product will operate as designed if you allow 4-5" clearance on the sides and top", you can likely trust them. Of course, this is an audiophile forum. Differences that may or may not be noticeable with anything other than special equipment are regularly debated and touted. So AFTER you meet the mfg recommendations, you can read and decide if more is worth it, and join the debate that will never be concluded.

 

[RichB]

I also have an AV8801 but it is located on an open shelf but located above a Parasound A51 amp. Without a fan, the ambient temperature to the low 90 F range.
The center back of the AV8801 reached 129 F. After a few months, Trigger A went out and the unit had to be repaired. That may be a coincidence, but to be prudent,
I connected this Gelid USB fan is connected to the rear USB port and powers on with the unit.

The fan is located on the left rear shelf and it moves enough air to lower the ambient temperature about 10 degrees with about the same result for the AV8801.
If you select a 12 volt fan that also operates at 5 volts, all that is need is a USB to fan connector.

- Rich

 

[Stanton]

I also have an AV8801 but it is located on an open shelf but located above a Parasound A51 amp. Without a fan, the ambient temperature to the low 90 F range.
The center back of the AV8801 reached 129 F. After a few months, Trigger A went out and the unit had to be repaired. That may be a coincidence, but to be prudent, I connected this Gelid USB fan is connected to the rear USB port and powers on with the unit.

I'd bet my paycheck that unit failure was due to the elevated ambient temps from being above a significant heat-producing source (another amp). To restate/clarify my earlier comment: I've never seen a problem with a Yamaha amp (requiring extra cooling) when placed in a reasonable ambient temp environment and given proper ventilation.

 

[PENG]

OP, I suggest following the manufacturer recommendation is a safe bet. The value of more than that is debatable.

I am not sure if it is debatable but I think it likely is. If it is even debatable, then the OP has the option to invest $15 on a 5 to 12V fan and be done with it. I am not a fan of any kind of fans either, and only did it when upgraded from the AV7005 to AV8801 that costs 2.5X more. I most likely am getting no value out of it, but then I don't have to find out.

 

[metalmancpa]

I look at the fan option as insurance. If a fan lowers the temp by 5 degrees without creating noise that can be heard from my listening spot (which in my case is 10' or so), then it's just a cheap insurance policy for the receiver.

 

[herbu]

Without a fan, the ambient temperature to the low 90 F range. The center back of the AV8801 reached 129 F.

My use of "ambient temp" means the temp of the room air, not the temp immediately above or behind the unit. If your room temp was ~70, and the air right behind the unit was 129, I suspect there was a problem of some kind. Of course exhaust or ventilation will be warmer than ambient. They're supposed to be. But ~60deg is a lot.

OP, I agree with PENG. If you have any doubt or debate in your mind, a fan can be cheap relief. If I could resolve every doubt in my mind for $15, I would be a more carefree guy, and still have change in my pocket.

 

[M Code]

Those mentioned temperatures are far too high!!!
Note that continued opeation will only decrease the components long-term reliability...
Also note that due to UL/CSA requirements, the power transformer has a built-in thermal breaker that if it opens the transformer needs to be replaced which is quite expensive...

Just my $0.05...