HDR and Dolby Vision Importance to you.

Dmantis10

Dmantis10

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#1
Hello all,
Ok so I have had my Sony Z9D for a while now and I think it's a pretty amazing TV. Then I installed a LG OLED for one of my clients and I sat down and really watched it for over an hour. When your in a store or Installing a TV, you really don't get to see how really good or bad they are.
I don't really do Installs much anymore but I still get to get my hands dirty from time to time. After I setup the LG and get everything dialed in( (I don't fully calibrate out of the box) and I started watching just some 4k video's off youtube to try out the OLED as I don't get to see many of the LG's at all. Man let me tell you this is an incredibly detailed bright clear with beautiful colors and super deep blacks. It's absolutely damn close or as good as Sony's OLED models. I sat there and for the first time in a very long time felt that this TV could actually make me happy over my forever Loved Pioneer Elite Kuro.
Don't get me wrong the Sony Z9D is one badass LED but it's an LED. At times I see stuff that I don't like. LED I don't care how good you make it and the Z9D is regarded as the best one ever made it's still has some of the issues LED has.
OLED on the other hand doesn't seem to have any of the strange issues LED's have at least in the content I was watching. She has Xfinity cable service which is only 1080p at best and it looked really good. Smooth and non blocky, no jitter or weird strange wiggles that LED will do from time to time. I catch it as I'm still so use to how a Plasma replay's video.
I have not spent any time with Sony's new Master Series OLED other then a few minutes here and there. Now I want to take one home and demo it in my house against the Z9D and really understand the differences between the 2 technologies other then what I have been trained on.
So as far as issues with OLED there are a few. You got Burn in and Image retention which I never had with any of my plasma TVs I owned and that's with 2 kids and a wife using them. I'm not so worried here. How long will it last? Who the hell knows that they have not been around that long. And finally the one that really prevented me from going OLED when I got the Z9D is by spec. OLED can't reproduce 1000 Nit's. They perform between 500-750 nits tops. Most HRD and Dolby Vision movies are mastered at 1000 nits or even higher which is insane but whatever specs are specs. My Z9D is the brightest TV ever made to date as far as I know and when something needs to be bright it damn shines. You need sunglasses with this damn light canon of a TV. I'm not sure that really matters all that much to me. It bothers the TECH in me as I'll know I can't reproduce all the high details as OLED's crush the top end detail with Tone mapping and no ability to replay them but I'm not a LED fan at all. I can live with the Z9D because it's a reference TV and I've never seen a better LED TV yet but I'm still not 100% happy with it.
My question to you guys who go deep into HDR and Dolby Vision what is your take on this whole video mess we live in right now? If you could own a OLED or the Z9D or Z9F the new one or not for me at all the Q from Samsung what road would you go money no object? I'm use to paying a premium for a TV so todays prices don't scare me except the 77 inch OLED's are pushing my limits. All 65 inch models are affordable to me and thats what I have currently. I'd love to go 75 or 77 next and I might bite the bullet and go OLED as I'm not sure the upgrades and downfalls of the new Z9F are going to satisfy me. Not to mention they don't have a 75 inch out yet. The 65 is out but I have not seen the 75 come through.
If you haven't figured it out the LG trashed me. I sat there in Awe and fell in love with that picture. It's so real and life like to me. WHY CAN'T OLED GET IT RIGHT AND MEET SPEC?
 
Dmantis10

Dmantis10

Audioholic
Ratings
38 1
#3
You have upgraditis
Dude when it hit's it hits hard. I've been upgrading and trying out different things for decades and love it. The Z9D is an amazing TV but coming from a Kuro Plasma I never been fully happy. I think the OLED's might be a better choice at least for me anyway.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic General
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614 1 1
#4
If you can afford a 75in or larger display, I would do it. My 65in TV is a little small for nhl hockey viewing. 1st world problems. :)
 
Joe B

Joe B

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388 1
#5
If you haven't figured it out the LG trashed me. I sat there in Awe and fell in love with that picture. It's so real and life like to me. WHY CAN'T OLED GET IT RIGHT AND MEET SPEC?
I'd go with my reaction 10 times out of 10 rather than by a list of specs. The bottom line is how this TV makes you feel. The next level of "tech" is always just around the corner, which, I believe, is still where Dolby Vision is right now. No time like the present!
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
102 13 7
#6
Dude when it hit's it hits hard. I've been upgrading and trying out different things for decades and love it. The Z9D is an amazing TV but coming from a Kuro Plasma I never been fully happy. I think the OLED's might be a better choice at least for me anyway.
I feel you. The Plasma Kuro is were made really well. OLED TV's look great like plasma but the tech seems to be constantly evolving and haven't plateaued. Many owners are now complaining about burn-in, black crush and have panel lifespan concerns. I have a Pioneer Kuro in my bedroom that I've owned for about 10 years that still looks good, I've been thinking about replacing it with a OLED, however I'm concerned about its susceptibility to burn-in and black crush. My Kuro doesn't have any burn-in, I can leave static images on the screen all day long and there won't be any image retention nor burn-in. Shadow detail is great on my Kuro, no black crush. Since you owned a Kuro, you know what I mean. I hate black crush and will return a TV for that alone.
 
Bookmark

Bookmark

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#7
Black crush is a user or source problem for OLeds, it is not something inherent in the design. Calibrate it, either professionally or with a good disc and just enjoy. People are just not used to the actual real dark/black levels capable on OLeds and tend to try setting them up like Leds.

You have a Kuro, is it burnt in? If so then don't go with an OLed. If not, then the risk is less than with the old Plasmas. It can happen, usually due to poor use. Avoid long periods (a good number of hours) of static bright graphics, particularly News, Sports channels, console games and film menus. They also sport panel wipes on a regular basis, normally at shut down after 6 hours and ever few hundred is does a longer one.

Mine is a two year old panel with effectively a three year old design. It has no sign of burn in, black crush, image retention and does everything I hoped for, inky blacks and bright whites. It is full 4K, does Dolby Vision, HDR 10, has 4 Hdmi inputs, one with an Arc return.

Now in the intervening years, not much has really changed, other than they are a bit brighter and the motion handling/soap opera effect has improved/diminished. Next years models are likely to have eARC, full Atmos, if that is important, and the current models can output DD+, pseudo atmos for the exisiting AVRs. Next year they may also support HDR10+. eARC support requires the AVR to be capable and the only things likely to need it are the Apps like Netflix and Prime. Which I can already do via the Xbox and Pc.

Peak brightness is around 400-600 nits where as the Samsung QLeds are around the 1000 mark. If the ambient light cannot be controlled or is very bright normally, then OLeds are probably not the best choice of display. If the light can be controlled, then it really is the best picture available for now. 8K is a concern for the distant future and nothing else is really on the near horizon.

I would not game on them, but some do. Should I ever have to replace mine, it will be with another OLed unless, something awesome turns up in the mean time. 75" and bigger are really expensive, 65" and 55" are well within the top end pricing of all types of display. From now, October/November until January is the best time to buy, since the start of the New Year is when the new models turn up and over the course of the year the price drops are sizable.

LG do most of other brand's panels, so something like the Sony also uses an LG panel, only the circuit boards are different. Two or 3 pixels stuck pixels (off or on) is enough to get the panel replaced. Sub pixels is closer to 10 I believe. I didn't see any on mine, so if they are there it's unnoticeable. There can be some unevenness in the brightness for the nit pickers out there but really nowhere near as bad as with other types of display.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic General
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614 1 1
#8
I’m happy with HDR10 but I’m looking forward to what HDR10+ can do. I may be in the market for a larger display in a couple years.
 
Dmantis10

Dmantis10

Audioholic
Ratings
38 1
#9
I feel you. The Plasma Kuro is were made really well. OLED TV's look great like plasma but the tech seems to be constantly evolving and haven't plateaued. Many owners are now complaining about burn-in, black crush and have panel lifespan concerns. I have a Pioneer Kuro in my bedroom that I've owned for about 10 years that still looks good, I've been thinking about replacing it with a OLED, however I'm concerned about its susceptibility to burn-in and black crush. My Kuro doesn't have any burn-in, I can leave static images on the screen all day long and there won't be any image retention nor burn-in. Shadow detail is great on my Kuro, no black crush. Since you owned a Kuro, you know what I mean. I hate black crush and will return a TV for that alone.
All the negative reasons that OLED's have is why I got the Z9D over a A1E from Sony. I actually prefer the look of the Sony OLED's over the LG's but it's so close I would be happy with either.
The Kuro is IMO the best tv ever made. It's perfect in every way for it's time. Even today I can go fire mine back up and beat up on the Z9D for 1080p stuff. To date I have yet to see any tv including the new OLED's beat the Kuro for 1080p. But the Kuro is a thing of the past and I think it's time for me to move away from my strong opinions of that set since it can't do 4k and let it stay wrapped in it's blanket in my basement or maybe one day I'll build a retro room and setup a Dolby Digital 5.1 with it at the Helm.
I so hear you again on the OLED's. I really want to buy one but I don't want to pay a premium and then have issues with it. The Z9D is pretty damn good and does impress me at times especially when running 4k HDR stuff. I think it does HDR better then Dolby Vision.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Senior Audioholic
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102 13 7
#10
All the negative reasons that OLED's have is why I got the Z9D over a A1E from Sony. I actually prefer the look of the Sony OLED's over the LG's but it's so close I would be happy with either.
The Kuro is IMO the best tv ever made. It's perfect in every way for it's time. Even today I can go fire mine back up and beat up on the Z9D for 1080p stuff. To date I have yet to see any tv including the new OLED's beat the Kuro for 1080p. But the Kuro is a thing of the past and I think it's time for me to move away from my strong opinions of that set since it can't do 4k and let it stay wrapped in it's blanket in my basement or maybe one day I'll build a retro room and setup a Dolby Digital 5.1 with it at the Helm.
I so hear you again on the OLED's. I really want to buy one but I don't want to pay a premium and then have issues with it. The Z9D is pretty damn good and does impress me at times especially when running 4k HDR stuff. I think it does HDR better then Dolby Vision.


Why don't you give your Kuro to a family member or donate it to charity instead of putting into your basement with a blanket over it?
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
102 13 7
#11
Black crush is a user or source problem for OLeds, it is not something inherent in the design. Calibrate it, either professionally or with a good disc and just enjoy. People are just not used to the actual real dark/black levels capable on OLeds and tend to try setting them up like Leds.

You have a Kuro, is it burnt in? If so then don't go with an OLed. If not, then the risk is less than with the old Plasmas. It can happen, usually due to poor use. Avoid long periods (a good number of hours) of static bright graphics, particularly News, Sports channels, console games and film menus. They also sport panel wipes on a regular basis, normally at shut down after 6 hours and ever few hundred is does a longer one.

Mine is a two year old panel with effectively a three year old design. It has no sign of burn in, black crush, image retention and does everything I hoped for, inky blacks and bright whites. It is full 4K, does Dolby Vision, HDR 10, has 4 Hdmi inputs, one with an Arc return.

Now in the intervening years, not much has really changed, other than they are a bit brighter and the motion handling/soap opera effect has improved/diminished. Next years models are likely to have eARC, full Atmos, if that is important, and the current models can output DD+, pseudo atmos for the exisiting AVRs. Next year they may also support HDR10+. eARC support requires the AVR to be capable and the only things likely to need it are the Apps like Netflix and Prime. Which I can already do via the Xbox and Pc.

Peak brightness is around 400-600 nits where as the Samsung QLeds are around the 1000 mark. If the ambient light cannot be controlled or is very bright normally, then OLeds are probably not the best choice of display. If the light can be controlled, then it really is the best picture available for now. 8K is a concern for the distant future and nothing else is really on the near horizon.

I would not game on them, but some do. Should I ever have to replace mine, it will be with another OLed unless, something awesome turns up in the mean time. 75" and bigger are really expensive, 65" and 55" are well within the top end pricing of all types of display. From now, October/November until January is the best time to buy, since the start of the New Year is when the new models turn up and over the course of the year the price drops are sizable.

LG do most of other brand's panels, so something like the Sony also uses an LG panel, only the circuit boards are different. Two or 3 pixels stuck pixels (off or on) is enough to get the panel replaced. Sub pixels is closer to 10 I believe. I didn't see any on mine, so if they are there it's unnoticeable. There can be some unevenness in the brightness for the nit pickers out there but really nowhere near as bad as with other types of display.
My Kuro doesn't have burn-in. Pioneer seemed to have been the only plasma manufacturer that really got a grip on burn-in. In fact, my Kuro doesn't even have image retention. The Panasonic plasmas have bad image retention, you can leave a static image on for ten seconds and then change the channel and that image will persist there long enough the make you think you are have permanent burn-in.

According to reports I've read from OLED owners and some reviewers is that black crush is part of the technology of OLED. Black crush can be minimized through some of the settings, but sometimes it can't. OLED's get blacker than all displays however, do to the fact the pixels turn all the off there are no gradations of black, which results in black crush.
 
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Bookmark

Bookmark

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#12
And so if your Kuro did not suffer, then you are using it wisely and consequently would likely have zero problems with an OLed. Image retention and burn in are similar, but not the same. You are unlikely to fix burn in, however image retention usually disappears either shortly thereafter or after a pixel wipe or two automatically. Bad image retention could take longer to clear.

This review, linked off the other one, is a lot fairer. The guy you linked, knows neither how to set up Oled or Led Tvs or knows much of anything, it was frankly drivel. Standard mode, 100 Oled Light, 100 contrast, 68 brightness is a total joke.o_O


Black crush is not a huge problem, pixels do not simply just turn off at a particular point other than 0 for Full RGB or 16 for Limited range as they should.:) When they are off, then they are actually off, there is no bleeding through of back light, but dim black is just that, a very dark grey. A bright room will mask this entirely, hence supposed black crush. The best of Leds is full array zone dimming which breaks up the screen to a series of x by y divisions. So a full black screen with a few white pixel like a star field would highlight the zones, where as the oled would just show the pixels. Near black, 5%-10% IRE is where most of the arguments come and colour accuracy there. It is not straight forward and some people think 2017 models are better than 2016 ones and presumably 2018 are better than either. Personally I am happy with mine (2016 B6 55"),I can see 5%-10% ire without a problem and without much of a colour bias in my dimly lit hovel and use a video specifically for this if I am tweaking. It has not been professionally calibrated, just myself. :)

Oleds are not a good solution for everyone.:eek: Brightly lit rooms are the bane of these tellys. Gaming 8 or more hours straight with static huds will cause Image retention and possibly burn in. Just don't do it, don't let the kids do it. :D

People who have problems tend to complain on the internet forums, people who don't, the vast majority, don't tend to dwell there.
 
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Auditor55

Auditor55

Senior Audioholic
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102 13 7
#13
And so if your Kuro did not suffer, then you are using it wisely and consequently would likely have zero problems with an OLed. Image retention and burn in are similar, but not the same. You are unlikely to fix burn in, however image retention usually disappears either shortly thereafter or after a pixel wipe or two automatically. Bad image retention could take longer to clear.

This review, linked off the other one, is a lot fairer. The guy you linked, knows neither how to set up Oled or Led Tvs or knows much of anything, it was frankly drivel. Standard mode, 100 Oled Light, 100 contrast, 68 brightness is a total joke.o_O


Black crush is not a huge problem, pixels do not simply just turn off at a particular point other than 0 for Full RGB or 16 for Limited range as they should.:) When they are off, then they are actually off, there is no bleeding through of back light, but dim black is just that, a very dark grey. A bright room will mask this entirely, hence supposed black crush. The best of Leds is full array zone dimming which breaks up the screen to a series of x by y divisions. So a full black screen with a few white pixel like a star field would highlight the zones, where as the oled would just show the pixels. Near black, 5%-10% IRE is where most of the arguments come and colour accuracy there. It is not straight forward and some people think 2017 models are better than 2016 ones and presumably 2018 are better than either. Personally I am happy with mine (2016 B6 55"),I can see 5%-10% ire without a problem and without much of a colour bias in my dimly lit hovel and use a video specifically for this if I am tweaking. It has not been professionally calibrated, just myself. :)

Oleds are not a good solution for everyone.:eek: Brightly lit rooms are the bane of these tellys. Gaming 8 or more hours straight with static huds will cause Image retention and possibly burn in. Just don't do it, don't let the kids do it. :D

People who have problems tend to complain on the internet forums, people who don't, the vast majority, don't tend to dwell there.
I did not have to be careful with my Kuro, I just won't burn in. I think OLED sets are a little more prone to burn-in than my Kuro. Anyway, I wish we had Panasonic OLED's in the U.S. because I love accuracy as well. Also, I've heard that LG OLED panels don't get up to 1,000 nits do to ABL.
 
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Dmantis10

Dmantis10

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Ratings
38 1
#14
Black crush is a user or source problem for OLeds, it is not something inherent in the design. Calibrate it, either professionally or with a good disc and just enjoy. People are just not used to the actual real dark/black levels capable on OLeds and tend to try setting them up like Leds.

You have a Kuro, is it burnt in? If so then don't go with an OLed. If not, then the risk is less than with the old Plasmas. It can happen, usually due to poor use. Avoid long periods (a good number of hours) of static bright graphics, particularly News, Sports channels, console games and film menus. They also sport panel wipes on a regular basis, normally at shut down after 6 hours and ever few hundred is does a longer one.

Mine is a two year old panel with effectively a three year old design. It has no sign of burn in, black crush, image retention and does everything I hoped for, inky blacks and bright whites. It is full 4K, does Dolby Vision, HDR 10, has 4 Hdmi inputs, one with an Arc return.

Now in the intervening years, not much has really changed, other than they are a bit brighter and the motion handling/soap opera effect has improved/diminished. Next years models are likely to have eARC, full Atmos, if that is important, and the current models can output DD+, pseudo atmos for the exisiting AVRs. Next year they may also support HDR10+. eARC support requires the AVR to be capable and the only things likely to need it are the Apps like Netflix and Prime. Which I can already do via the Xbox and Pc.

Peak brightness is around 400-600 nits where as the Samsung QLeds are around the 1000 mark. If the ambient light cannot be controlled or is very bright normally, then OLeds are probably not the best choice of display. If the light can be controlled, then it really is the best picture available for now. 8K is a concern for the distant future and nothing else is really on the near horizon.

I would not game on them, but some do. Should I ever have to replace mine, it will be with another OLed unless, something awesome turns up in the mean time. 75" and bigger are really expensive, 65" and 55" are well within the top end pricing of all types of display. From now, October/November until January is the best time to buy, since the start of the New Year is when the new models turn up and over the course of the year the price drops are sizable.

LG do most of other brand's panels, so something like the Sony also uses an LG panel, only the circuit boards are different. Two or 3 pixels stuck pixels (off or on) is enough to get the panel replaced. Sub pixels is closer to 10 I believe. I didn't see any on mine, so if they are there it's unnoticeable. There can be some unevenness in the brightness for the nit pickers out there but really nowhere near as bad as with other types of display.
Thanks for the reply. Nice to hear your enjoying yours. I never had any burn in issues with any of my Plasma Tv's and I owned 2 of them in the Kuro and a Fujitsu. Both of those Tv's I had where incredible with amazing picture. My Fujitsu was a 50 inch plasma and the Kuro was a 60 inch. They where pretty close in performance but the Ku
Why don't you give your Kuro to a family member or donate it to charity instead of putting into your basement with a blanket over it?
It's a special piece of gear to me. It's one of those things you don't want to let go. I don't wanna see it go to waste so one day I'll bring her out again.
 
Bookmark

Bookmark

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#15
I can only talk from my personal experience and I have not had any issues with retention and certainly not burn in over the last two years. I don't tend to leave it endlessly on the news channels and beyond the F1 don't tend to watch sport much. I do like the Superbowl, but that's only once a year, and so long as Patriots aren't in or they lose. :p My favorite TV was my old Philips 32" Crt but I'll keep the LG.:D

No idea why the Pansonics might not be for sale in the US, but you are probably right on the LG peak brightness, they now have the VESA ratings and I don't think LG have one at HDR 1000.

As I say Oleds are not ideal for everyone, or all use cases.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

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102 13 7
#16
I can only talk from my personal experience and I have not had any issues with retention and certainly not burn in over the last two years. I don't tend to leave it endlessly on the news channels and beyond the F1 don't tend to watch sport much. I do like the Superbowl, but that's only once a year, and so long as Patriots aren't in or they lose. :p My favorite TV was my old Philips 32" Crt but I'll keep the LG.:D

No idea why the Pansonics might not be for sale in the US, but you are probably right on the LG peak brightness, they now have the VESA ratings and I don't think LG have one at HDR 1000.

As I say Oleds are not ideal for everyone, or all use cases.
I know that gamers typically don't prefer OLED. QLED is interesting, but I'm kind of skeptical about LED/LCD tech, maybe I'm just bias.
 
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#17
Arguments with Gamers is usually twofold. The refresh rate, they want extremely low lag and high refresh rates, preferably near or above 120Hhz. They also want, everything else including the kitchen sink, screen size, HDR, bright pictures, 4K, etc.:eek:

Oleds only mostly fill the 2nd part and the concern would always be for Burn In and Image Retention due to a lot of static content. Also they tend to use it for long periods of time. Newer Tvs are starting to come with FreeSync (Amd) and potentially Gsync (Nvidia). Oddly this is one area where AMD are ahead, possibly because of the consoles. However even the best TVs cannot really compete with proper monitors. Oleds are not great on the low lag and refresh rates, but they are getting better. Some, probably most TVs now, have a gaming mode which turns off a lot of the extra processing to improve speeds.

Samsung is an odd one, the only one of the big sellers to not do any Oled, they use it in phones, but not TVs. They did one once, but didn't like the yield results so opted to work on improving Leds with the Quantum Dot tech. I think they do a good job and for probably most people, it is the best the tech has to offer currently. Especially in more, significant other, friendly normal bright family rooms. My last Tv was a Samsung and it still works after 10+ years, but the backlight is now a bit patchy and uneven and black was never truly black however it was the best I could afford at the time. :)

For me, I like the pure black of the Oled where regardless of the film framing, 4:3, 16:9, 21:9 the rest of the TV just disappears into to background. I tend to watch a lot of films and the room light is well handled.

If you go down the Oled path hopefully everything works out well. If select something else due to concerns or different requirements that's fine too and by all means keep hold of the Kuros. :D
 
Dmantis10

Dmantis10

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#18
What is the general feelings when it comes to color pixels wearing out faster than others? That doesn't make any sense to me and I'm wondering how long it takes for that to start showing itself.
 
andyblackcat

andyblackcat

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372 1 6
#19
None what so ever dolby vision is like dolby crap for vision like fake news is. Looks like utter garbage rubbish on my Marantz SR6012 dolby vision belongs in the cat litter.
 

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