HDMI is Dead. Introducing HDBaseT Networking

[TLS Guy]

I have never seen a connection I would like to see the back of more than HDMI.

I hope the dreaded DRM that goes with it is better though out and pees of a pain than the HDCP codes. I bet however they superimpose these dappy codes on this new system.

 

[Stereodude]

Unfortunately, it's not standard ethernet and it can't be run though a gigabit switch on your existing network.

 

[j_garcia]

I have never seen a connection I would like to see the back of more than HDMI.

I hope the dreaded DRM that goes with it is better though out and pees of a pain than the HDCP codes. I bet however they superimpose these dappy codes on this new system.

It will be the same or something similar I am sure. What about handshake? Will we still have to deal with that? My guess is yes also, but even if it is equivalent, it will probably still be an improvement

 

[DEIMOS280]

How long before MONSTER comes out with a gold wire hyper platinum plated flux 3ft CATe5 for $60?

 

[Stereodude]

How long before MONSTER comes out with a gold wire hyper platinum plated flux 3ft CATe5 for $60?

A long time. $60 is way too cheap for them.

 

[chronos56]

I do see a coouple of problems

My biggest concern is that it uses the same connector as Ethernet. I hate to think of the damage and or problems that may occur if you get your cables mixed up. Plug one of these cables carrying all of that power into an Ethernet port and whats going to get fried?

My other concern is upgrade path. To use this in concert with existing equipment is going to mean all kinds of adapter boxes, Oh Joy!

Now all of my griping aside, I Like It! This will, in the long run make for much better system integration.

I hope that thy include some sort of remote control speck in this as well, so when your watching video from the living room Blueray player in your bedroom you can still pause the video.

 

[rnatalli]

Please let this kill HDMI.

 

[TLS Guy]

My biggest concern is that it uses the same connector as Ethernet. I hate to think of the damage and or problems that may occur if you get your cables mixed up. Plug one of these cables carrying all of that power into an Ethernet port and whats going to get fried?

My other concern is upgrade path. To use this in concert with existing equipment is going to mean all kinds of adapter boxes, Oh Joy!

Now all of my griping aside, I Like It! This will, in the long run make for much better system integration.

I hope that thy include some sort of remote control speck in this as well, so when your watching video from the living room Blueray player in your bedroom you can still pause the video.

I agree with that. If this connector is used to deliver AC power then it must not be the same as an Ethernet connector. That is asking for trouble, and big trouble at that.

 

[Stereodude]

I agree with that. If this connector is used to deliver AC power then it must not be the same as an Ethernet connector. That is asking for trouble, and big trouble at that.

Ethernet is AC coupled. POE (Power Over Ethernet) has been around for a while, so unless they did something incredibly stupid there shouldn't be any impact by inadvertently connecting the two. You can plug standard Ethernet devices into a POE switch and it doesn't fry the devices because they figured this out already.

 

[highfigh]

Ethernet is AC coupled. POE (Power Over Ethernet) has been around for a while, so unless they did something incredibly stupid there shouldn't be any impact by inadvertently connecting the two. You can plug standard Ethernet devices into a POE switch and it doesn't fry the devices because they figured this out already.

POE is low voltage and TVs run on high voltage AC, unless they come up with a way to do it with lower voltage and step it up internally. The article makes no mention of the voltage and current, only that the "charging power" is 100W. They can't use 120VAC in communications cabling, AFAIK, and it's not allowed for high voltage and low voltage to be in the same junction box without a divider, assuming they're run on separate cables.

Is there any other info about this? The proximity of power supply and signal/control wires concerns me. Do they plan to change TVs to run on DC voltage? That wouldn't work for long distance runs because of the voltage drop.

 

[Rickster71]

Many good points brought up.

I'll bet it's 48V, and for this application a DC supply is more likely than AC.

The spec delivers 100W of power, so assuming it uses 48VDC it will have no problem supplying 100w for 330 feet.
If using all four pairs in Cat-5 or 6, the math works out even better.

 

[jinjuku]

Guys, there is most likely an AC to DC coupler in the TV...

You know those little boxes that take 120v AC and turn it into 12VDC at 1amp sort of dohickeys. They have the technology to build the inside the TV. I know, technology marches on.

Have a TV that needs more than 100 watts? Run TWO CAT5/6 lines... Cat 5 is ~$90 for a 1000 foot spool. Crimpers ~$35. A bag of RJ 45's you ask? 100 for ~$15.

 

[jinjuku]

As far as POE, as already pointed out, it is figured out. No frying of components.

LCD panels AFAIK are not AC driven. They are DC devices.

HDCP is a PROTOCOL. Protocols are PHY agnostic from DVI on up. So it is here to stay. You need to separate HDCP from any one connection standard.

HDCP does not equal HDMI.

I already get Hi-Definition content over my Cat5 Been doing it for years. Everything from BR to the HDTV Home Run for OTA. There is also going to be a HDTV home run with cable card support for Windows 7.

 

[TLS Guy]

As far as POE, as already pointed out, it is figured out. No frying of components.

LCD panels AFAIK are not AC driven. They are DC devices.

HDCP is a PROTOCOL. Protocols are PHY agnostic from DVI on up. So it is here to stay. You need to separate HDCP from any one connection standard.

HDCP does not equal HDMI.

I already get Hi-Definition content over my Cat5 Been doing it for years. Everything from BR to the HDTV Home Run for OTA. There is also going to be a HDTV home run with cable card support for Windows 7.

Yes, Poe is a form of Phantom powering, which you can do with DC. However a TV takes quite a bit of power, and if you use low voltage DC powering the current will be high and it seems the wires will be too small. The TVs will have to be designed to accept DC phantom power. Microphones use 48 volt phantom power. Direct TV uses 18 volt. The way it works is you have to signal carriers at 48 volts above ground. So no DC can flow between the signal carriers, but power can be delivered from the signal carriers and ground.

So if this is a go TVs will have to be able to accept DC power.

 

[Rickster71]

So if this is a go TVs will have to be able to accept DC power.

Right.
The next generation devices, low-power Blu-ray players and low power monitors, will eliminate the need for an external AC power cable.
One 'hub unit' (one that can't run on low power, i.e. HT receiver) will feed the low power devices.

 

[jinjuku]

Yes, Poe is a form of Phantom powering, which you can do with DC. However a TV takes quite a bit of power, and if you use low voltage DC powering the current will be high and it seems the wires will be too small. The TVs will have to be designed to accept DC phantom power. Microphones use 48 volt phantom power. Direct TV uses 18 volt. The way it works is you have to signal carriers at 48 volts above ground. So no DC can flow between the signal carriers, but power can be delivered from the signal carriers and ground.

So if this is a go TVs will have to be able to accept DC power.

Let me ask you this: Is a Laptop LCD AC or DC Driven? What about a desktop Monitor?

Is it DC or AC at the Circuit Breaker Panel? How many DC driven devices do you have in your home?

I understand Phantom Power. What am I saying is every single device in your home plugs into 120V AC at 60Hz. What I am also saying is that the final driving stage of a lot of electronics gets converted over to DC.

LCD's not being an exception. LCD's are ultimately DC driven devices. I am sure that if you look far enough up the power circuit you can bypass the 120V section and wire car batteries up in the required series or parallel to drive it.

 

[Warpdrv]

Yes, a real connector with normal wiring.... Kill HDMI with their Cr@ppy connectors and bring on this new format quicker.

 

[TLS Guy]

Right.
The next generation devices, low-power Blu-ray players and low power monitors, will eliminate the need for an external AC power cable.
One 'hub unit' (one that can't run on low power, i.e. HT receiver) will feed the low power devices.

That will also eliminate a lot of ground loops.

It is going full circle, in the days of old when tubes were king, the power amp used to provide the low voltage AC for the filaments, and the high voltage DC HT.

All solid state devices are DC. The problem is there are a myriad of voltages within every unit. +5 volt/-5 volt and even as low as three volts, and then for lower stages up to 100 volts or more DC depending on power, as output voltage can not exceed rail voltage.

Current power transformers have many taps. So not having a power transformer will lead to a need for DC voltages higher then 48 volts likely. Then you have the problem that a lot of chips require a plus positive and negative voltage at the same time. The DC voltage going in will be the maximum available to the device. The DC voltage can be dropped with regulators, so there will be a nee for a myriad of these within a device.

I would recommend two powered lines at +48/-48, that would power most units and give design flexibility.

I'm a bit concerned this all may not be well thought out yet, and lead to severe circuit design constraints.

 

[highfigh]

Many good points brought up.

I'll bet it's 48V, and for this application a DC supply is more likely than AC.

The spec delivers 100W of power, so assuming it uses 48VDC it will have no problem supplying 100w for 330 feet.
If using all four pairs in Cat-5 or 6, the math works out even better.

I thought it said everything is carried on one Cat5e/Cat6 cable.

 

[highfigh]

Guys, there is most likely an AC to DC coupler in the TV...

You know those little boxes that take 120v AC and turn it into 12VDC at 1amp sort of dohickeys. They have the technology to build the inside the TV. I know, technology marches on.

Have a TV that needs more than 100 watts? Run TWO CAT5/6 lines... Cat 5 is ~$90 for a 1000 foot spool. Crimpers ~$35. A bag of RJ 45's you ask? 100 for ~$15.

But, there's no such thing as free power, so even if it has an AC/DC power supply, the needed current is still a factor. If the supply isn't stout enough, the voltage will sag as soon as any appreciable load is applied and if the cable is conducting higher current, it could easily fail, causing an expensive repair if it's in a new construction or remodel rough-in and it's not accessible after the fact. The 22-24AWG single strand conductors make it a no-go if one opens. If it's pinched or bent tightly, it can cause problems, too. It may be only 100W but at 48V, it's just about 2A and wall warts don't last long at that level. As for your laptop reference- they get hot and it's not only a matter of a few Watts- there's a lot of energy wasted in converting from AC-DC and back. Also, DC voltage can't be increased as easily as AC.

Don't get me wrong- I'm all for lower power use and easier/more dependable cabling but I'm not sure Cat5e/Cat6 is the answer. There are enough other cables that are used for other applications that would be better able to handle this, like Cat5e/18-2 siamese cabling.

RE: more devices that use an outboard DC power supply- security DVRs use this, some smaller TVs and many other devices do, too. This lends itself to using alternative energy sources and I'm hugely in favor of this. Solar/wind power with backup batteries would be a good way to exploit this and I'm happy to see some interesting new concepts.