Harsh high end - replace speakers or amp?

[3db]

I think we're jumping the gun a bit, folks. The OP has a tweeter issue and we start recommending adding a subwoofer before even attempting to seriously diagnose the problem? Sounds to me like the speaker has exaggerated highs that are causing listening fatigue/harshness.

OP, if you listen at louder volume levels does music with heavy treble (or any other music) "hurt" your ears? Maybe not a serious physical pain, but discomfort that gives you an urge to turn it down ASAP? Has this been an issue since you got the speakers? Do you have a Best Buy Magnolia anywhere near you?

Actually, there were two posts about diagnosing the room acoustics as well. However, the OP has not indicated how is room is layed out. Room acoustics is being totally over looked IHO.

 

[minimal]

I believe your MA speakers crossover to the tweeter at 3000 Hz. That seems high for 6" aluminum woofers, and could allow some of their break up noise to bleed through when you are listening to female voice at higher volumes.

The answer, find different speakers that handle what you like to listen to.

Thank you for this very informative reply. What you describe seems very plausible to me. The issue I detect is only noticeable with female voices, at relatively high (for me) volumes. What I hear is that at certain pitches - usually a soprano reaching for a high note - the speakers seem to "grab" on to a kind of grainy edge in the voice that cuts through everything else and is unpleasant to hear. Based on what you describe, it seems possible that what I am hearing is break up noise from the woofer.

 

[minimal]

I apologize that I have not commented on the room. The room is an 11 x 14 shoebox - essentially a basic rectangle that is very common in NYC apartments. I have the two speakers situated in the center of the 14 ' side, on stands, six feet apart, toed in slightly, about two feet from the walls. I listen from a couch directly across from the speakers. The floors are hardwood but I have a very large rug in front of the speakers.

I am sure the sound is bouncing all over the place and very possibly contributing to (or even causing) this problem. However, given that this is not a dedicated listening room I am not sure there is much I can do (or that my wife will allow) in terms of room treatments.

 

[fmw]

I apologize that I have not commented on the room. The room is an 11 x 14 shoebox - essentially a basic rectangle that is very common in NYC apartments. I have the two speakers situated in the center of the 14 ' side, on stands, six feet apart, toed in slightly, about two feet from the walls. I listen from a couch directly across from the speakers. The floors are hardwood but I have a very large rug in front of the speakers.

I am sure the sound is bouncing all over the place and very possibly contributing to (or even causing) this problem. However, given that this is not a dedicated listening room I am not sure there is much I can do (or that my wife will allow) in terms of room treatments.

I've already provided my recommendation but let me tell you a story. We did some blind listening tests many years ago. An interesting one matched a pair of expensive high end speakers against a more modest sub/sat system. The high end speakers were placed in a small, square, carpeted bedroom in the corners. The sub/sat system was located in a large bedroom that is 12X26. The speakers were placed at the middle the long walls facing one of the short walls and the listening position was about 5 feet from that short wall. The modest speakers won the preference test and it was all because of room acoustics. The small room and the resulting placement couldn't get the best out of the expensive speakers but the large room with lots of space behind the speakers made the less expensive units really sing. You can test that in your room pretty easily. Just move your speakers temporarily to the middle of each long wall, face them toward a short wall and listen facing the speakers. If the unpleasant high frequencies disappear then you know it isn't the speakers. Personally, I doubt it is the speakers. The British speaker manufacturers are well known for producing neutral and accurate products. I describe them as pleasantly understated. Monitor Audio is no exception.

 

[Pyrrho]

Then the myth is what's plagued me then

With virtually every speaker I've listened to, and in the past three years I'd put that number up around 25, those that I considered bright or harsh had metal dome tweeter, anything worth listening to for more than 10 minutes did not.

I don't mean to be rude, but anecdotal evidence means very little. A hypothesis with anecdotal evidence alone is not testable.

We know scientifically what causes listening fatigue and the simple presence of a metal dome is not one of them. Listening fatigue is caused by severe peaks in the treble or midrange. This can be caused by diffraction, breakup, acoustic interference, etc. Most speaker designers are more than capable of dealing with dome/cone breakup and the other issues can be dealt with via smart design. A 1" metal dome tweeter will not begin to breakup until far past 20khz because of its small size and adequate stiffness. Most people can't hear past ~15khz anyway (WELL before 99.999% of metal domes have issue).

While you might have a problem with these speakers, it is highly unlikely that the metal dome alone is responsible for this. There is no evidence I have ever seen to suggest metal domes are inherently plagued by response issues that cause fatigue. If anything, a properly designed metal dome tweeter will bring out more detail than its silk/soft dome counterpart as it remains pistonic through it's entire frequency range. Plus, not all metal is equal. Beryllium is a metal and a 1" beryllium dome doesn't breakup until ~40khz. Good luck hearing that!

Out of curiosity, what is your favorite speaker you have ever heard?

Although I agree with you in principle, as a matter of fact, the speakers that I have liked best have all had either ribbon or soft dome tweeters (with my very favorites having ribbons). But my sample size is necessarily limited, and I do not take it to mean that metal domes must be bad. In fact, I remember hearing some old speakers with cone tweeters that were surprisingly good (upon inspection, they had huge magnets on the cone tweeters; I do not remember what the speakers were), so I would not want to automatically rule out anything. What matters (to the listener) is how it sounds, not what they did to achieve it.

 

[Swerd]

What you describe seems very plausible to me. The issue I detect is only noticeable with female voices, at relatively high (for me) volumes. What I hear is that at certain pitches - usually a soprano reaching for a high note - the speakers seem to "grab" on to a kind of grainy edge in the voice that cuts through everything else and is unpleasant to hear. Based on what you describe, it seems possible that what I am hearing is break up noise from the woofer.

There is an easy way to determine if the woofer, tweeter, or room is the source of that unpleasant sound.

Your speaker has two pairs of speaker terminals. If they are bridged (as in the photo), one set of speaker wires will operate the speaker. If you remove the bridges, one set runs the woofer through its crossover filter, and the other set runs the tweeter through its filter. Check the manual to be sure about what each terminal pair does.

As you play the appropriate passage on your CD, it should be easy to determine what makes the noise by ruling out what doesn't make the noise.

 

[ski2xblack]

There is an easy way to determine if the woofer, tweeter, or room is the source of that unpleasant sound.

Your speaker has two pairs of speaker terminals. If they are bridged (as in the photo), one set of speaker wires will operate the speaker. If you remove the bridges, one set runs the woofer through its crossover filter, and the other set runs the tweeter through its filter. Check the manual to be sure about what each terminal pair does.

As you play the appropriate passage on your CD, it should be easy to determine what makes the noise by ruling out what doesn't make the noise.

Playing the woofs alone will sound horribly muffled, like the music is coming from under water, so any higher freq cone breakup should stick out like a sore thumb. Excellent troubleshooting suggestion. Minimal, do what Swerd suggests. It will probably confirm your fears, but better to face the music and fix the problem, and if that means a speaker upgrade, c'est la vie.

 

[jcunwired]

Well that's much different. Your guess is as good as mine.

Depends on the pricepoint. lol No, I agree.

Heya Jared,

I need to expand just a bit on my previous post - it was late night from my tablet.

I looked back on audition notes from the aforementioned listening sessions. There was one titanium alloy tweeter that I found surprisingly pleasing, this in the PSB Imagine B bookshelf. Other parts didn't work so well, but that's another story. While not a contender for my purchase (my experience in pharmacy didn't produce the same degree as ADTG!), Kef Reference speakers are to die for.

I haven't heard a speaker with beryllium drivers that weren't stellar, although I am limited to having only heard Focal, Paradigm Signature and my former Yamaha NS-1000 (one of the finest speakers I've ever owned or heard, but can't remember 'cause that was over 20 years ago ) with beryllium tweeters. I'm pretty sure the beryllium midrange in my Emp E41-B will stay with me for a long time (probably because it has a silk dome tweeter )

It is certainly not appropriate (to me) to purchase speakers based on materials, I didn't want to leave that impression. I'm sure there are many manufacturers who do a great job integrating metal tweeters, but my ears seem to gravitate to a speaker with ribbon or silk tweeter.