Harsh high end - replace speakers or amp?

[minimal]

Hi everyone,

I'm just about a complete newbie with this stuff, so I appreciate your humoring me with this question...

I have a Harmon Kardon HK-3490 stereo amplifier driving a pair of Monitor Audio RX1s. Generally speaking, I think the speakers sound fantastic, but I'm having one nagging issue.

I listen to a lot of classical and jazz, and when I listen to certain examples of music (especially opera), the high-end seems a bit harsh when pushed above low volume.. this is especially pronounced during operatic arias or anything that is very "trebly". Certain arias take on a quality that is borderline unpleasant to my ear.

I have read that the MAs are very "bright" and I suspect that this could be contributing to the issue. But I also recognize that the HK-3490 might also be a poor amp for such bright, forward speakers.

Essentially my question is this: given my musical tastes, and assuming I only have the budget to invest in replacing one or the other, would I be better served in getting a new amplifier or a new set of speakers? And in either case, are there particular brands or models of speakers or amps that are known to be well suited to classical/jazz (as opposed to rock/pop/dance/etc.)

I appreciate any insight anyone might have for me. Thanks for your help!

 

[fmw]

I love it the way you have it. There seems to be a preference for "warmth" in their listening so they turn down the highs. I think your issue is that you are using bookshelf speakers and your preference needs more bass. Have you thought about investing in a subwoofer?

 

[minimal]

Thanks for your reply. Honestly, I hadn't thought about a subwoofer, as the RX1s seem to me to provide a pleasing amount of bass. The problem that has been bothering me is a noticeable "screechy" quality in the high end of recordings that have a lot of treble. I thought that perhaps my pairing of equipment was contributing to this issue.

 

[oppman99]

What is your listening room like? Do you have hardwood floors and lots of reflective surfaces? If the answer is yes, room treatments may be the most cost effective solution. Try clapping your hands in your listening room. If you hear a lot of echo, the room will benefit from absorption. Also, how large is your listening room. That will factor in to any suggestions for equipment changes.

 

[fmw]

Thanks for your reply. Honestly, I hadn't thought about a subwoofer, as the RX1s seem to me to provide a pleasing amount of bass. The problem that has been bothering me is a noticeable "screechy" quality in the high end of recordings that have a lot of treble. I thought that perhaps my pairing of equipment was contributing to this issue.

It sounds like your system is delivering everything but lower bass. A subwoofer, used discreetly, will fill in some of the missing bass and make the treble less noticeable. It seems a shame to deprive yourself of the high frequencies but many people do. Most people just need some bass fill, particualarly people who use bookshelf speakers with small woofers.

 

[3db]

As oppman99 pointed out, it may be that the room the speakers are in is very lively with excessive of reflections causing the treble to become harsh. If thats not the case, I would follow fmw route and start looking for a sub


Looking at the specs,

http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/products/silver-rx/rx1/#/specification

I think you room is more the problem than lack of bass unless the room is overly large and you are sitting quite far from them.

 

[Pyrrho]

Hi everyone,

I'm just about a complete newbie with this stuff, so I appreciate your humoring me with this question...

I have a Harmon Kardon HK-3490 stereo amplifier driving a pair of Monitor Audio RX1s. Generally speaking, I think the speakers sound fantastic, but I'm having one nagging issue.

I listen to a lot of classical and jazz, and when I listen to certain examples of music (especially opera), the high-end seems a bit harsh when pushed above low volume.. this is especially pronounced during operatic arias or anything that is very "trebly". Certain arias take on a quality that is borderline unpleasant to my ear.

I have read that the MAs are very "bright" and I suspect that this could be contributing to the issue. But I also recognize that the HK-3490 might also be a poor amp for such bright, forward speakers.

Essentially my question is this: given my musical tastes, and assuming I only have the budget to invest in replacing one or the other, would I be better served in getting a new amplifier or a new set of speakers? And in either case, are there particular brands or models of speakers or amps that are known to be well suited to classical/jazz (as opposed to rock/pop/dance/etc.)

I appreciate any insight anyone might have for me. Thanks for your help!

If you don't like the sound of the treble, it is your speakers that you should replace. You should go out into the world and listen to as many different types of speakers (e.g., ribbon, horn, dome, whatever) as you can find in your price range, of as many different brands as you can stand to audition. Take samples of your favorite music with you (I recommend making a CDR with a wide range of pieces with which you are familiar).

Your problem with the speakers "when pushed above low volume" reminds me of something I noticed comparing a couple of pairs of speakers I owned in the early 1980's. I had a pair of Heybrook HB2 speakers (Heybrook reused the model number later for a completely different speaker) and a pair of Optimus T-200 speakers (Radio Shack's top of the line around 1980). At low volume, the speakers sounded more similar than I would have guessed, but as the volume increased, the Optimus speakers sounded worse and worse, sounding ever more harsh. The Heybrook speakers sounded good up to the point when the woofer "bottomed out" (i.e., reached maximum excursion), at which point the Optimus speakers sounded better. But as that was louder than I tended to listen to them, that was not a big deal. So I sold the Optimus speakers and kept the Heybrooks (which I still have).

Anyway, when auditioning speakers, make sure you listen to them at low volume and also as loud as you will ever want to hear them, to make sure they sound good at every volume you will be using them.


From your description of your musical tastes, you might like these:

http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMG

Or a higher model that would be purchased from a dealer.

 

[monkish54]

I think we're jumping the gun a bit, folks. The OP has a tweeter issue and we start recommending adding a subwoofer before even attempting to seriously diagnose the problem? Sounds to me like the speaker has exaggerated highs that are causing listening fatigue/harshness.

OP, if you listen at louder volume levels does music with heavy treble (or any other music) "hurt" your ears? Maybe not a serious physical pain, but discomfort that gives you an urge to turn it down ASAP? Has this been an issue since you got the speakers? Do you have a Best Buy Magnolia anywhere near you?

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi everyone,

I'm just about a complete newbie with this stuff, so I appreciate your humoring me with this question...

I have a Harmon Kardon HK-3490 stereo amplifier driving a pair of Monitor Audio RX1s. Generally speaking, I think the speakers sound fantastic, but I'm having one nagging issue.

I listen to a lot of classical and jazz, and when I listen to certain examples of music (especially opera), the high-end seems a bit harsh when pushed above low volume.. this is especially pronounced during operatic arias or anything that is very "trebly". Certain arias take on a quality that is borderline unpleasant to my ear.

I have read that the MAs are very "bright" and I suspect that this could be contributing to the issue. But I also recognize that the HK-3490 might also be a poor amp for such bright, forward speakers.

Essentially my question is this: given my musical tastes, and assuming I only have the budget to invest in replacing one or the other, would I be better served in getting a new amplifier or a new set of speakers? And in either case, are there particular brands or models of speakers or amps that are known to be well suited to classical/jazz (as opposed to rock/pop/dance/etc.)

I appreciate any insight anyone might have for me. Thanks for your help!

Welcome to the forum. It is nice to have another opera lover on board!

Opera is the toughest medium to reproduce satisfactorily. The Ring Cycle is the absolute top of the audio mountain as far as a challenge for a reproducer. Nothing else comes remotely as challenging as reproducing the Ring.

Unfortunately there are very very few speakers out there that can give satisfaction reproducing opera. In fact it is reproducers responsible for the caricatures of opera.

Sopranos don't shriek, loudspeakers more often than not do.

Your speakers are a little bright and not on my recommended list for opera.

A sub I don't think will help you, as the problems you get into with reproduction of opera are well out of sub range. For pop you just need thump and tish. Pop singers in general have cringeworthy vocal technique.

A speaker for you music sources must have no part of the frequency response above zero db, especially from 200 Hz to 15 kHz. A few minor dips can be tolerated.

The next issue is that opera singers use head and chest voice extensively. Very few speakers properly balance head and chest voice. The problem is that this transition occurs exactly were monopole speakers transition from half to full space radiation. Quite honestly this can not be set correctly by any known measurements in my view. The final arbiter in this crucial aspect has to be set my the ear of an experienced designer knows what to listen for. I have found the it is virtually impossible to get this perfect with just passive crossovers. In my reference systems are now do this with and active network and separate amplification.

What you need is a very smooth set of speakers with good extension to 40 to 45 Hz. This almost certainly means going to a tower design.

The only manufacturers I can highly recommend are ATC, Spendor and PMC.

I can't, for your choices recommend B & W. My friend has 800Ds, and whilst fine speakers
they don't really handle the chest voice transition quite optimally. Slightly too much head voice over chest voice. (Almost universally the problem).

When Erda appears from the depths in Das Rheingold to deliver her fearsome warnings to Wotan about holding onto the ring, you want her to sound "Earthy" like all good contraltos should! And you don't want any shrieking in the first act of Die Valkure, and certainly not at the end of Gotterdammerung.

I would recommend a speaker change. An amplifier change will not help you initially. After getting speakers you are content with, the addition of a good sub will be icing on the cake.

 

[minimal]

I think we're jumping the gun a bit, folks. The OP has a tweeter issue and we start recommending adding a subwoofer before even attempting to seriously diagnose the problem? Sounds to me like the speaker has exaggerated highs that are causing listening fatigue/harshness.

OP, if you listen at louder volume levels does music with heavy treble (or any other music) "hurt" your ears? Maybe not a serious physical pain, but discomfort that gives you an urge to turn it down ASAP? Has this been an issue since you got the speakers? Do you have a Best Buy Magnolia anywhere near you?

Thank you for replying - what you describe is almost exactly what I am experiencing. The timbre of the treble in some music is fatiguing my ears and making it difficult to listen for extended periods of time.

I live in NYC so I have access to many different kinds of shops that cater to audio enthusiasts, Best Buy Magnolia among them (I think there are three here).

 

[minimal]

TLS Guy, thank you so much for your detailed reply and for sharing your knowledge. I do have the sense now that my speakers aren't particularly well-suited to the genres I enjoy. Just last night, Dorothea Röschmann singing "dove sono i bei momenti" was marred by an unpleasant harshness that forced me to reach for the volume control.

I have tried to avoid tower speakers simply as a space consideration, as I live in New York City and space is always at a premium in apartments here. But I do understand the trade-offs I am forced to make in terms of sound quality.

I have been told by others that I should perhaps consider bookshelf speakers that have a soft dome or ribbons rather than the metallic dome tweeter of the MAs - on the basis that the metallic domes are too bright for most classical music applications. I don't know if there is any truth to such a broad generalization, but it seems to superficially make sense.

 

[monkish54]

Thank you for replying - what you describe is almost exactly what I am experiencing. The timbre of the treble in some music is fatiguing my ears and making it difficult to listen for extended periods of time.

I live in NYC so I have access to many different kinds of shops that cater to audio enthusiasts, Best Buy Magnolia among them (I think there are three here).

Yeah, sounds like your speakers have exaggerated highs. Getting new speakers is the way to go. As a test to make sure your pair isn't defective, you could drop by a Magnolia and listen to their units. If you hear the same harshness, it's because the tweeter is a bit "hot".

If you give us your budget we can help you find something new you can be happy with. (Something you can listen to for more than 20 minutes without crying. )

 

[monkish54]

I have been told by others that I should perhaps consider bookshelf speakers that have a soft dome or ribbons rather than the metallic dome tweeter of the MAs - on the basis that the metallic domes are too bright for most classical music applications. I don't know if there is any truth to such a broad generalization, but it seems to superficially make sense.

There is very, very little truth to that. Any modern tweeter used correctly will not cause fatigue. There are a few different reasons a tweeter can sound uber harsh:

1. The designer decided to increase the SPL of the tweeter causing a volume mismatch. This tends to attract people as it gives a sense of "air" or "sizzle" but over long periods of time it becomes very fatiguing!

2. The tweeter response is plagued by a series of peaks. This is usually caused by dome breakup, which even for metal domes is not an issue in 99% of modern tweeters. It can also be caused by cabinet diffraction.

3. The designer used the tweeter through its resonant frequency. Could happen, but it's not as likely as the first option. Since the tweeter in the RX1 is crossed at 3khz, this is very highly unlikely.

You need not worry about driver materials (except in very specific situations) unless you are designing.

 

[Swerd]

I have a Harmon Kardon HK-3490 stereo amplifier driving a pair of Monitor Audio RX1s. Generally speaking, I think the speakers sound fantastic, but I'm having one nagging issue.

I listen to a lot of classical and jazz, and when I listen to certain examples of music (especially opera), the high-end seems a bit harsh when pushed above low volume.. this is especially pronounced during operatic arias or anything that is very "trebly". Certain arias take on a quality that is borderline unpleasant to my ear.

… I do have the sense now that my speakers aren't particularly well-suited to the genres I enjoy. Just last night, Dorothea Röschmann singing "dove sono i bei momenti" was marred by an unpleasant harshness that forced me to reach for the volume control.

Even though I'm arriving late to this conversation, welcome to AH.

Your original question asked about both your Harmon Kardon and your Monitor Audio speakers. So far no one has blamed the HK and I am no different. If the HK is working properly, as it seems to be, the problem you hear in voices is most likely due to your speakers. Many others have already said as much.

However, the problem is not likely to be solved by adding a subwoofer. Adding a subwoofer is essentially a power issue, as the subwoofer and its dedicated amplifier will relieve your HK of the burden of reproducing the power hungry bass parts. Your problem, as you described above, is with the upper midrange – with female voices driven at loud levels.

Do you hear accentuated detail, that if loud enough can produce an irritating edge to the sound, ultimately leading to listener’s fatigue? If so, you are hearing the woofers breaking up in the upper midrange. It's not the fault of the tweeter.

I haven't heard these particular speakers nor have I seen acoustic measurements of their frequency response so what I have to say about these speakers is speculation based on experience with many others.

Speakers that at first listen seem to add detail over and above what is in the recording generally suffer from this kind of upper midrange peak. Not surprisingly, many people mistakenly believe this fatiguing sound comes from the tweeter. But it more often comes from the woofer combined with a poorly designed crossover.

The upper midrange peak is a a natural bump in the woofer's response in the upper midrange (roughly 3-8 kHz), caused by a resonance coming from where the cone material meets the rubber surround. This resonance, found in all coned speakers, is a result of the whole mechanical system formed by the cone, surround, and suspension, and varies significantly with the cone material. This bump in the frequency response curve is not just a louder response, but noise that you really don’t want to hear. It’s often called woofer break up noise.

Most woofers have at least a little of this, but some have quite a bit. That’s the dirty little secret of most woofers, and, a large reason why good crossover design is so important. This is the most common problem in smaller 2-way speakers.

I believe your MA speakers crossover to the tweeter at 3000 Hz. That seems high for 6" aluminum woofers, and could allow some of their break up noise to bleed through when you are listening to female voice at higher volumes.

The answer, find different speakers that handle what you like to listen to.

 

[monkish54]

I believe your MA speakers crossover to the tweeter at 3000 Hz. That seems high for 6" aluminum woofers, and could allow some of their break up noise to bleed through when you are listening to female voice at higher volumes.

The answer, find different speakers that handle what you like to listen to.

Dur! I don't know why I didn't think about that myself. I didnt even think to check the woofer size. *facepalm*

My old Tag Mclaren speakers crossed a 1" tweeter over to a 5" midwoofer and a whopping 5-6khz. The speaker was impossilbe to listen to at high SPL or for extended amounts of time.

 

[jcunwired]

There is very, very little truth to that...

You need not worry about driver materials (except in very specific situations) unless you are designing.

Then the myth is what's plagued me then

With virtually every speaker I've listened to, and in the past three years I'd put that number up around 25, those that I considered bright or harsh had metal dome tweeter, anything worth listening to for more than 10 minutes did not.

 

[monkish54]

Then the myth is what's plagued me then

With virtually every speaker I've listened to, and in the past three years I'd put that number up around 25, those that I considered bright or harsh had metal dome tweeter, anything worth listening to for more than 10 minutes did not.

I don't mean to be rude, but anecdotal evidence means very little. A hypothesis with anecdotal evidence alone is not testable.

We know scientifically what causes listening fatigue and the simple presence of a metal dome is not one of them. Listening fatigue is caused by severe peaks in the treble or midrange. This can be caused by diffraction, breakup, acoustic interference, etc. Most speaker designers are more than capable of dealing with dome/cone breakup and the other issues can be dealt with via smart design. A 1" metal dome tweeter will not begin to breakup until far past 20khz because of its small size and adequate stiffness. Most people can't hear past ~15khz anyway (WELL before 99.999% of metal domes have issue).

While you might have a problem with these speakers, it is highly unlikely that the metal dome alone is responsible for this. There is no evidence I have ever seen to suggest metal domes are inherently plagued by response issues that cause fatigue. If anything, a properly designed metal dome tweeter will bring out more detail than its silk/soft dome counterpart as it remains pistonic through it's entire frequency range. Plus, not all metal is equal. Beryllium is a metal and a 1" beryllium dome doesn't breakup until ~40khz. Good luck hearing that!

Out of curiosity, what is your favorite speaker you have ever heard?

 

[mike c]

if turning down the treble on the tone controls doesn't help ... change the speakers.

i listened to the RS LCR's in our heavily treated HT, and it made me want to remove my ear drums. granted that's an older model, the tweeter should be similar.

 

[jcunwired]

Beryllium is not found in many speakers.

I'm not talking about listening fatigue, but rather a dislike. The sound just doesn't appeal to me, anecdotal or not.

I doubt very seriously that every speaker heard and rejected was plagued by design flaws. I would place room characteristics as the cause more readily than a poorly configured crossover by the time a speaker has reached the showroom, anecdotal evidence aside.

 

[monkish54]

I'm not talking about listening fatigue, but rather a dislike. The sound just doesn't appeal to me, anecdotal or not.

I doubt very seriously that every speaker heard and rejected was plagued by design flaws.

Well that's much different. Your guess is as good as mine.

Depends on the pricepoint. lol No, I agree.