Harman Kardon Power Question

[Fife]

I understand that HK receivers are very conservatively rated. I know that they measure their power with all channels being driven and use an RMS power rating. Their THD is also fairly low. Besides all that, do they still have less power (potential volume prior to distortion) than an equivilently priced Yamaha, Denon, or Pioneer?
Thanks

 

[jrd257]

I was recently in the market for a 7.1 receiver and was comparing the HK avr 235, Onkyo TX sr602, and the Yamaha HTR 5760. I found all 3 to very similar with quality of build and sound quality. I was very close to choosing the HK, but settled on the Yamaha because I've owned one in the past and loved the reliability and sound quality it produced.

So to go back to your question of power handling in the HK, don't worry there is plenty of punch in the similar priced components.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I understand that HK receivers are very conservatively rated. I know that they measure their power with all channels being driven and use an RMS power rating. Their THD is also fairly low. Besides all that, do they still have less power (potential volume prior to distortion) than an equivilently priced Yamaha, Denon, or Pioneer?
Thanks

You need to check what the HK is rated for 2 channel operation as well. You will never need all channels driven to full power at exactly the same time, so there is not much need for an all channel driven rating, IMO

 

[zumbo]

Except for dvd-a & sacd

 

[crashguy]

Go to Home theater magazine's website, and you'll find a comparo between the Denon 3805, the H/K 630, and a few others. The H/K had less power than some of it's competitors, although it has been a while since I visited the sight, and I don't specifically recall the numbers.

Keep in mind though, a difference of 10 or 20 watts makes very little difference in overall performance.

The H/K 630 and other lab tests for POWER are here:http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/

 

[PENG]

I am glad to see this question finally being asked. Within the same (narrow) price range, HK receivers do not always give more "real" power than their competitors, despite the fact that they rate their products conservatively. Follow crashguy's link and you will see that in some cases they actually give less. They do sound nice, and you always know what their "all channel driven" ratings are, without having to wait for any lab test results.

Regarding the comment:

"Except for dvd-a & sacd "

I own several dvd-a and sacd, IMHO none of them requires a lot of power for the surround channels.

 

[zumbo]

But, all channels would be driven. This would take a good bit of power away from the mains when a receiver claims 100w X 7, but does not give the "all channels driven" spec. Correct?

But when H/K claims 100w X 7 "all channels driven", during DVD-A & SACD playback, this means the mains WOULD be getting their 100w. Correct?

 

[nm2285]

I believe what Peng is getting at is that the full power is rarely ever needed. Yes, you'd have the full 100 watts available, but rarely would you ever reach a level where that much power is needed. Rarely even in your mains would you need that much, let alone surrounds.

 

[zumbo]

I believe what Peng is getting at is that the full power is rarely ever needed. Yes, you'd have the full 100 watts available, but rarely would you ever reach a level where that much power is needed. Rarely even in your mains would you need that much, let alone surrounds.

You will never need 100w? I guess if you are driving Bose cubes! I have 175w (all channels driven) going to my MB Quarts! And they would love more. I have peak indicaters on my amp. AND THEY WORK!. Meaning, I am using the 175w.

And you answered yes to which question. There woud not be 100w per channel available during multi-channel playback from a receiver that does not rate their power as "all channels driven"!

 

[PENG]

I agree there will be time you need 100WX7 (or more) all channel driven, but that time will likely be really short (or "rare"), certainly not "continuous". You mentioned DVD-A, I have a few DVD-A and they all output mainly to the front and centre channels. The only time I find all channels receiving more or less the same power from the receiver is when the 5/7 CH ST mode is selected.

If you are talking about peak power, most Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, Sony ES, HK models in the >$700 range should able to deliver 100W to more than 2 channels simultaneously.

 

[mtrycrafts]

But, all channels would be driven. This would take a good bit of power away from the mains when a receiver claims 100w X 7, but does not give the "all channels driven" spec. Correct?

No. Each channel is capable of full power, independently by itself. If all channels are driven or tried to at the same instant to full power, the main power supply is the weak part. If only 2 ch. are driven, to full power you still have power to the others, of course at reduced level, for that instant that full power is needed in the main. Surrounds in
DVD-A and SACD are fractional watts.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You will never need 100w? I guess if you are driving Bose cubes! I have 175w (all channels driven) going to my MB Quarts! And they would love more. I have peak indicaters on my amp. AND THEY WORK!. Meaning, I am using the 175w.

And you answered yes to which question. There woud not be 100w per channel available during multi-channel playback from a receiver that does not rate their power as "all channels driven"!

Perhaps you don't have subs? Driving them too hard? What spl levels? Speaker sensitivity? Bands outside of lows do not use or need that much power to be deafening.
Yes, there would not be full power to all the channels at the same instant, yes, independently there is full power available to each channel. Yes, you will not need such power on all channels at the same instant, no such material but one could create one.

 

[zumbo]

Perhaps you don't have subs? Driving them too hard? What spl levels? Speaker sensitivity? Bands outside of lows do not use or need that much power to be deafening.
Yes, there would not be full power to all the channels at the same instant, yes, independently there is full power available to each channel. Yes, you will not need such power on all channels at the same instant, no such material but one could create one.

Yes. I have a NHT SW-12. Don't see why that matters. It has it's own power. I don't see what is so hard to understand. When you are using a multi-channel source, such as a concert dvd, dvd-a, or sacd with a receiver that claims 100w X 7, but not "all channels driven", the mains WILL NOT have 100w available.

 

[PENG]

I don't see what is so hard to understand.

May be mtrycrafts, or others can find a better way to explain, I tried, didn't work!

On the other hand, I know for e.g., the 3805 has the following data available:

Rated by Denon(not all channel driven) - 120X7
Tests by S&V output at clipping (1KHz)
1 channel into 8 ohms - 151
2 channels into 8 ohms - 139
5 channels into 8 ohms - 107
7 channels into 8 ohms - 93

H&T tests (Crashguy posted the link)
For 2 channes:

Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 218.4 watts and 1% distortion at 243.0 watts.

Based on these data, I believe the 3805, and other similarly priced Yamaha, Pioneer, HK models (but it does not mean HK gives less, or more, as Fife asked) should have no problem putting out 100 to 120W to the fronts, and surround speakers under all but perhaps the really rare (if exist at all, in some audio/video DVDs) occasions.

I am not sure if Fife questions have been answered.

 

[zumbo]

Here is a thread where I was on the other side of this argument. Annunaki gave me a good 'ole butt whoopin. click here.

 

[Ross]

Back in 2001, S&V tested the yamaha rxv1000 ("320 watt power consumption) at ~80x5. How do you explain this... According to Annuaki, with his global ~55% efficiency theory, this sort of occurence should be impossible, defying the laws of physics. The tested unit would be putting out more than its "rated" power consumption, 400 > 320...

Anyone?

best,
Ross.

 

[zumbo]

S&V are FOS?

 

[zumbo]

May be mtrycrafts, or others can find a better way to explain, I tried, didn't work!

On the other hand, I know for e.g., the 3805 has the following data available:

Rated by Denon(not all channel driven) - 120X7
Tests by S&V output at clipping (1KHz)
1 channel into 8 ohms - 151
2 channels into 8 ohms - 139
5 channels into 8 ohms - 107
7 channels into 8 ohms - 93

H&T tests (Crashguy posted the link)
For 2 channes:

Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 218.4 watts and 1% distortion at 243.0 watts.

Based on these data, I believe the 3805, and other similarly priced Yamaha, Pioneer, HK models (but it does not mean HK gives less, or more, as Fife asked) should have no problem putting out 100 to 120W to the fronts, and surround speakers under all but perhaps the really rare (if exist at all, in some audio/video DVDs) occasions.

I am not sure if Fife questions have been answered.

NOTE: Rating @ 1k. Not 20-20k. And certainly not "all channels driven"!

 

[Ross]

Ok, well, I guess I didn't expect much of a response to that anyway...

Z, Which test results do you see as not being FOS?

Any 'informed' or constructive comments are welcome!

Big A consistently uses such HT rags as S&V and HTM as viable sources.

Which source(s) do you use Z?

Do you know of any testors that do a 20-20k test across all channels...and do you think that is a realistic situation?

best,
Ross.

 

[zumbo]

S&V are FOS?

This was a question. Note: The question mark.

As far as testing goes, I believe "all channels driven" is the best out of all listed. At least you know the amp was fully taxed. And as far as 1k, could you imagine listening to your favorite tune with only the 1k frequency being produced? Talk about a realistic situation.