William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
You're right , you're probably going to get flamed.. And I'll strike the match... We as a society might actually try NOT creating crime legislation to justify the prison industrial complex .. This has been going on for 50 years , we warehouse the " less desirable " minorities by sending them to jail over antiquated drug laws and create criminals .. It's finishing school .. How about decriminalization of drugs ..?? That would eliminate about 70% of " crime"...but of course the prison industry and local law enforcement can't justify ever increasing funding based on less crime.. So criminals must be created...violent criminals should be in jail .. Dude slining 20 rocks on the corner because it's the only job in the neighborhood really doesn't belong in jail...
Agreed.

I think some people deserve to die for sure. The problem I have with capital punishment is the fact that innocent people have been put to death for doing nothing wrong based on bad evidence. If we had a path to absolute certainty it'd be different, but we often don't. I'd rather let some escape the death penalty who deserve it than to put someone to death who doesn't.
I agree, and that’s why it’s extremely complicated, and why I said if there was unequivocal evidence.
The war on drugs is a spectacular failure and wrong, imo. There are a lot of folks sitting in prison now for things that I don't think should even be considered a crime. Prison for profit needs to stop. Jails are incentivised to lobby for unfair laws to keep folks in prison when we should be striving to keep as many out of prison as possible. I can't believe more people don't see it. The whole system disgusts me.
Agreed again.

Those people would have been arrested , injured , killed ... We gotta figure a way to let the cops know we are watching and going to hold them accountable in a macro sense...i think *maybe*something got started yesterday...
It’s sad, but also true. Anybody going after that POS would have been met with far more force. In retrospect it would’ve been worth it, but I don’t think anyone expected George to die.
Exactly , trying to hold the crowd responsible for Floyds death is trying to rationalize and excuse the root problem.. There aren't always bystanders there ,nor are they responsible for police malfeasance... That's a macro issue and needs Congressional overhaul...
Overhaul is an understatement.....
 
Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic General
I was referring to the crowd- NOBODY did anything, aside from telling him to stop.
Give me a break! You're asking why they didn't bum rush 3 cops? We'd have a hell of a lot more dead black people than just George Floyd!

What exactly is the subject at hand here?? :rolleyes:
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
I agree, and that’s why it’s extremely complicated, and why I said if there was unequivocal evidence.
Yup. It is extremely complicated and there's a lot of nuance to consider. I would argue that every innocent person who was put to death was based on, at that time, unequivocal evidence. Bad evidence can have the appearance of being unequivocal.

I don't entirely disagree with you either. Just tryna add some of that nuance to the conversation. I would err on the side of letting a guilty man live than risk killing someone who's innocent.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
Yup. It is extremely complicated and there's a lot of nuance to consider. I would argue that every innocent person who was put to death was based on, at that time, unequivocal evidence. Bad evidence can have the appearance of being unequivocal.

I don't entirely disagree with you either. Just tryna add some of that nuance to the conversation. I would err on the side of letting a guilty man live than risk killing someone who's innocent.
I think it’s even worse than bad evidence looking good sometimes. I think in far too many cases, it’s a railroad job, with a scapegoat. Imo, there are also many other cases where it’s very clear who is responsible. And to be clear, I’m not talking about some kid peddling smack. I mean aggravated murderers, and criminals of that level. I agree with you about frying an innocent man. That’s not excusable. But for the ones who there’s no question? Fukk em.
 
L

lp85253

Audioholic Chief
I think it’s even worse than bad evidence looking good sometimes. I think in far too many cases, it’s a railroad job, with a scapegoat. Imo, there are also many other cases where it’s very clear who is responsible. And to be clear, I’m not talking about some kid peddling smack. I mean aggravated murderers, and criminals of that level. I agree with you about frying an innocent man. That’s not excusable. But for the ones who there’s no question? Fukk em.
Yeah, i think some folks become " targets" of investigations and law enforcement does the easy thing.. It's systematic in nature imo.. The goal isn't public service but self serving quests to justify funding and pad solved case stats... Law enforcement needs public oversight by elected bi partisan commissions, completely separated from the government and union influences...
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Samurai
Chauvin got what he deserved but just think what would have happened had not Floyd put up a ruckus .........
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
Exactly , trying to hold the crowd responsible for Floyds death is trying to rationalize and excuse the root problem.. There aren't always bystanders there ,nor are they responsible for police malfeasance... That's a macro issue and needs Congressional overhaul...
And, as mentioned about police having guns, imagine if crowd tried to stop them, fearing for their lives start shooting? A reasonable response, self defense, interfering with law enforcement, doubt the outcome would benefit the crowd much or any. :eek:
 
L

lp85253

Audioholic Chief
And, as mentioned about police having guns, imagine if crowd tried to stop them, fearing for their lives start shooting? A reasonable response, self defense, interfering with law enforcement, doubt the outcome would benefit the crowd much or any. :eek:
100% agree.. It would probably have been a clusterf*** even larger than it already was...honestly i just am losing patience with the status quo pro police/ pro trump/ foxnoise watching, entitlement squad... Time to move over folks, the training is coming thru and sleepy joe is drivin'....
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Samurai
And, as mentioned about police having guns, imagine if crowd tried to stop them, fearing for their lives start shooting? A reasonable response, self defense, interfering with law enforcement, doubt the outcome would benefit the crowd much or any. :eek:
You're starting to sound like Lebron, what a jackass !


I suspect the young lady who was being lunged at by that fat assed knife wielding individual might think differently ?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
Been with my wife for 21 years and it's only been the past 3 years she's began to understand my disdain for how policing is done in the U.S. They are trained to be grade-a azzholes IMO.
The media is really effing this up- police, on average, are fine. The ones that make the news suck but why would the media cover the good ones?

They're not trained to be A-holes, they're trained to take control of the situation but everyone wants to fight. That 16 year old girl in Columbus- the crowd was basically standing around until the officers showed up and then, they started going at it again with one guy kicking another girl in the head, right in front of the cop who shot the girl with the knife.

Cooperate, and it generally goes fine. Fight, run or drive away and, not so much. Why would any cop want to deal with the aftermath of a shooting? The idea that they would makes no sense.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
The media is really effing this up- police, on average, are fine. The ones that make the news suck but why would the media cover the good ones?

They're not trained to be A-holes, they're trained to take control of the situation but everyone wants to fight. That 16 year old girl in Columbus- the crowd was basically standing around until the officers showed up and then, they started going at it again with one guy kicking another girl in the head, right in front of the cop who shot the girl with the knife.

Cooperate, and it generally goes fine. Fight, run or drive away and, not so much. Why would any cop want to deal with the aftermath of a shooting? The idea that they would makes no sense.

My personal experience is they are highly and properly trained to be azzholes. They are trained to escalate, they are trained to attempt to turn everything into an investigation. I've had in my lifetime three instances with LEO 100% instigated by LEO while minding my own business. I also think they are equal opportunity azzholes. Not some diabolical racist cabal.

I'm also willing to take each occurrence on it's own merits. I'm glad cops are wearing body cams as it keeps everyone accountable and generally they exonerate police more now that they have them.

Police are asked to do way to much and budgets can be better allocated and some sorts of interactions taken off their plate.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
You say that a crowd of black people should charge several armed police officers? How many black people would be killed, do you think, since the police officers does not stop another police officer from murdering a black person?
Force in numbers is effective- there was no guarantee the cops wouldn't shoot and the crowd stayed, so that shows some level of courage, or whatever- could have been an act of defiance.

Their guns weren't out, they were participating in an excessive force act and video was being recorded by someone in the crowd plus the surveillance cameras across the street- that should have registered with the cops, but apparently, they were too involved in being idiots. They wouldn't need to rush the cops or put their hands on them but there's always something nearby that can be used as a weapon if they really wanted to end the killing. If the store didn't have a gun, baseball bat, axe handle, etc, I would be surprised- if I had a store, I would have something ready because it's just about the only way to survive- convenience stores are robbed and employees & shoppers attacked too often. Well, in America. The White areas aren't immune, either- it happens constantly.

I don't know who put those officers together, but the department needs to take a good, hard look at their people and weed out the bad ones, damned fast. The Federal DOJ is looking into it- that should, theoretically, cause some action.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
No, unfortunately we don’t have the death penalty here. I’m sure I’ll get flamed, but I think we need to have more capital punishment. Going to prison is more a rite of passage than a punishment. Imo it’s why crime in general has such proliferation. I don’t really want to open the can of worms that this topic can become, because it’s just too complex, but in cases like this, or where there’s irrefutable evidence, flip the switch....
I suppose you’re right though. If he gets into general population, it might as well be a death sentence.
I wouldn't want to be on a jury that sentences someone to death, but I think some crimes warrant it. Dahmer and some others are good candidates, but the fact is, allowing some dirtbags to be in the general population IS their death sentence. No guilty consciences in the jury or executioner, either.

At the end of the day, it's all part of the reasons I'm disappointed in people- some can't bring themselves to get along with others.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
That's a huge part of my thought as to police/ minority interactions.... Many officers consider minorities as the enemy and low income areas as " hostile territory " this is obvious.. What is also obvious is : officers are trained to neutralize "threats " as self protection first and administer justice as a secondary issue.. This isn't" serving the public" it's racist and place-ist.. Stop and think.. When is the last time a rich white guy got accidentally shot by a cop?? When is the last time a rich white guy got the crap beat out of him or choked to death over a phony $20 bill. ?? That was probably on the 12 th of last NEVER...another thing is the blue wall you speak of , cops never turn against cops even the criminal cops...funny the one union the gop doesn't lose it mind over concerning corruption is probably the most incestuous and corrupt still in existence...
Those ARE hostile territory. People don't want to cooperate because 'snitches get stitches', but as soon as one of theirs is greased, they're on TV wailing and screaming, asking "Where were the police, to stop this?". Can't have it both ways. Fortunately, people ARE calling the PD with info and some of the offenders are being caught but here, only about 15% of the murders and shootings are solved because nobody wants to talk.

I don't know about the rest of the country, but Milwaukee cops have beaten the crap out of a good number of white idiots. They even killed a suburban cop who was at a bar when an incident started- he went to his car to get his weapon and after the Milwaukee cops showed up, he was shot. Later, the detective and at least one of the officers were rung up on corruption, bribery and other charges. If you heard of someone by the name of Laurie Bembenek, she was the detective's 'something on the side' and he framed her for killing his ex-wife.

Here's another case-

 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
Give me a break! You're asking why they didn't bum rush 3 cops? We'd have a hell of a lot more dead black people than just George Floyd!

What exactly is the subject at hand here?? :rolleyes:
The FNG probably wouldn't react in time to do much, the others could have been cold-cocked. Again, the event was being recorded- I think people SHOULD become involved when they see this crap. They were already at risk. The guy Floyd was with tried to get out of the passenger seat, but one of the cops pushed him back. In court, that guy used the 5th Amendment and his lawyer said "My client can't put himself in that car because he could be charged with 3rd Degree Murder"- he declined to answer several questions on that basis. I think that may be moot, since that was on video, too- he may have been trying to get away.

I think they would have had a few dead cops, too.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
And, as mentioned about police having guns, imagine if crowd tried to stop them, fearing for their lives start shooting? A reasonable response, self defense, interfering with law enforcement, doubt the outcome would benefit the crowd much or any. :eek:
People who are carrying a gun are legally allowed to stop an attack- if someone who wasn't carrying legally had shot the cops, I would hope the DA would look at it as that- an attempt to stop an attack. They may have to take their lumps for carrying illegally, but Floyd might be alive. I would have a hard time seeing it as 'obstruction of justice' because what those cops were doing was so far from 'justice'.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
Exactly , trying to hold the crowd responsible for Floyds death is trying to rationalize and excuse the root problem.. There aren't always bystanders there ,nor are they responsible for police malfeasance... That's a macro issue and needs Congressional overhaul...
Who's holding them responsible? I wrote that I'm surprised someone didn't step up. There's a difference.

You're right- bystanders aren't always near something like this but if they hadn't been in this case, he'd still be dead, but we wouldn't have had cell phone video to convict the cops. I think someone would have made it public, though- the place across the street has cameras.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Who's holding them responsible? I wrote that I'm surprised someone didn't step up. There's a difference.

You're right- bystanders aren't always near something like this but if they hadn't been in this case, he'd still be dead, but we wouldn't have had cell phone video to convict the cops. I think someone would have made it public, though- the place across the street has cameras.
I thought a smart guy (I'm not being sarcastic) like you would know why nobody acted.
Why Do We Help Less When There Is a Crowd? | Psychology Today

On top of that, if a person, or persons, had intervened and prevented Floyd's death, what do you think would have been the consequences for those interveners? The onus would absolutely be on them to prove that Floyd would have died if they had not acted. Of course, they wouldn't be able to prove what would then be pure conjecture.

While people in the crowd were worried that Floyd might die, nobody knew with certainty that it would happen. As outlined in the link I provided, people in crowds tend not to act to help people in distress. Asking them to help someone in distress at the hands of police is on an entirely different level.

I'm not at all surprised that nobody intervened. I don't blame them and neither should you.
 

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