Green Mountain Audio Europas

[Dr. Parthipan]

From that link, "Given that we hear only when our eardrums move, under the impact of the air molecules right next to them, then our goal really is to move those particular molecules the correct sub-microscopic distances at the right times. Each molecule knows only that it was hit from behind, and so on... all the way back to the speaker."

This is correct if the sound is purely air-borne and not impacting any other part of the body but extreme low frequencies are usually perceived through the body itself. Bone conduction and body size help to augment what comes in through the ears and in fact, hearing isn't only from the ear drum moving. "Hearing" is stimulation of the auditory nerves through movement of the cilia, whether that's by vibrating the tympanic membrane & the rest of its mechanism or through the vibrations traveling through the body.

Also, the molecules can move by being "hit from behind", or being "hit" from any other angle. Remember vectors? Time alignment is nice, but it's really hard to implement correctly. Point source? A piano isn't a point source, neither is a piccolo. A speaker manufacturer who claims to make speakers that are a point source can't succeed. They can come close but even if they come extremely close, a piano can't sound absolutely accurate because the low notes come from one side and the high notes from the other, almost 6' away. If a speaker makes a piano sound like a point source, either the speaker/reproduction system or the recording process has failed to be completely accurate (single mic to record a large instrument).

All of this being said, even if a speaker can reproduce the input waveform with absolute accuracy at close distance, the room will affect it unless the sound is completely directional and even then, we'll hear it differently from the way the mic picked it up because we have two ears that aren't coincidental in space. I agree that time/phase alignment are critical but I haven't seen any real evidence that these speakers accomplish this. Claiming "The result? You hear what we hear --the smallest inflections of music, the slightest sound effects, the grandest dynamic expressions, the subtle sways and surges, ever-changing timbres and full range of emotions."- that's just marketing, not science. The smallest inflection of music coming through a dynamic speaker system that may be 5% efficient isn't going to allow tiny inflections to be reproduced with absolute accuracy.

Are you arguing with the great Roy Johnson of Green Mountain? He is a trained physicist with many years of college level mathematics. It's easy to be quick to dismiss what he has written but you should discuss it with him beforehand. Perhaps get him to participate and give him the chance to respond.

 

[cornelius]

The words I have read and heard, to describe sound, make very little sense. Loading the product literature with flowery descriptions that can't be understood is probably as bad as being dishonest. That's why it's important to come up with commonly acceptable descriptions and accurate specs. For those who want objective info, the specs should be accurate and useful....
TV/radio/recording industry engineers/producers don't read gushing reviews of equipment. They look at the specs and watch/listen to the equipment with specific input signals. They also refer to others who are familiar with the equipment and THEN make their buying decisions. You usually won't find the esoteric brands in most recording studios and many of the brands would never be familiar to consumers but they are what is used to produce the movies & music we listen to. I have said it many times before- if someone wants to hear it the same way as the record producers and engineers did, they have to go to that control room, with the same equipment, with the same number of people in it, with the same temperature/humidity/barometric pressure. Recreating this in someone's house is impractical, very expensive and won't yield the same results.

I agree on having some specs to help communicate how a speakers sounds (there's a dip at 3k, a mid-bass bump, or the bass rolls off at 50hz...). There's a lot of reviewer drivel to sift through - especially if talking about amps and CD players - it happens with speakers too.

But I disagree that pros don't rely on reviews, and that esoteric brands don't exist in studios!

An engineer is going to read reviews on Genelecs, just as easily as a consumer will read a review on Paradigms. Engineers rely heavily on their ears - they don't read graphs and measurements for potential purchases In their world. They go by auditioning and word of mouth. Also, and very importantly, the world of NS-10s is declining. In recent years, I'm finding many more high quality monitors in studios. Producers, and musicians are embracing more hi-end systems at home and benefitting from the information that their gear is giving them. There's a well known engineer here in town who used to use Proacs. They are great speakers, and he was a dealer for them on the side (you could borrow a pair and audition them in your room). A few years ago I noticed that he switched to GMAs. I'm not sure if he's still using them, but my point isn't that GMAs are so great (I've never heard them), rather that a well respected engineer switched to an 'esoteric' brand to rely on, in the studio.

Mastering labs have been using hi-end brands for years (Duntech, Dunlavy, Eggleston, B&W...). That's the end of the chain, and that's where you want to hear what the artist creatively had in mind.

 

[KEW]

I don't think one should cast aspersions at equipment they haven't personally heard.

Please show where people are criticizing equipment unless it is pointing out specific inadequacies in the FR.
I believe almost all criticisms have been targeting their advertisement and approach to marketing which show great similarity to Bose.

 

[GranteedEV]

I'm not even criticizing the green mountains, as they're speakers I know absolutely nothing about (thanks to their brutal subjective marketing).

The only thing I've critcized is silly uneducatedness like "$5000 tubes are more transparent than solid state pro-amps because they make me feel fuzzy inside and are targetted at true audiophiles" and "my audiophile cables sound more transparent than your inferior mid-fi zip-cord" and "only analogue is Hi Fi" and "True Hi Fi is for the Elite I, this board's interest is in dinosaur thumps and car crashes and thus they all own paradigm and settle for `mere receivers`" and if you think anything proving distortion, response, analysis, or anything else means anything then you just haven`t heard my elite system you peasants.

 

[Dr. Parthipan]

I'm not even criticizing the green mountains, as they're speakers I know absolutely nothing about (thanks to their brutal subjective marketing).

The only thing I've critcized is silly uneducatedness like "$5000 tubes are more transparent than solid state pro-amps because they make me feel fuzzy inside and are targetted at true audiophiles" and "my audiophile cables sound more transparent than your inferior mid-fi zip-cord" and "only analogue is Hi Fi" and "True Hi Fi is for the Elite I, this board's interest is in dinosaur thumps and car crashes and thus they all own paradigm and settle for `mere receivers`" and if you think anything proving distortion, response, analysis, or anything else means anything then you just haven`t heard my elite system you peasants.

Doesn't that sound like sour grapes?

 

[GranteedEV]

Doesn't that sound like sour grapes?

Not really his fault we don`t waste money on esoteroic crap, instead looking for actual performance. it`s the fault of the industry as a whole for perpetuating this sort of nonsense as fact. I`ve been to many a dealer where they`ll do everything to convince me that ``every piece in the signal chain makes an equal difference``.

Just the other day i walked into an electronics store and asked to listen to some Totems. they were set up so you stand about 2 feet away from them during the audition, which is dumb. I stepped back about 9 feet from the speakers and told him to turn it up. At my listening position they probably weren`t even at 85db (large room so little gain) yet being run full range these `towers` woofers were bottoming.

Instead of telling me that i asked to push the mere 5 inch peerless drivers on the totems just too damn hard, he tells me that won`t happen with another amplifier. Please. I can tell the difference between a woofer bottoming and an amplifier clipping.

Further still, he tells me the reason these totems were bottoming is because they`re 8 ohms and a 4 ohm speaker will get louder with the amplifier "because they draw more current". I asked him the sensitivity of the 4 ohm speaker and he tells me "92db". I asked him "per what?" and he tells me "huh?". I said "92db per what?" and he says 92db/w/m. The 8 ohm speakers are 87db/w/m. Those are efficiency ratings, not sensitivity. Yet 92db/w/m @ 4 ohm is only like 89db/2.83/m. So between pretty much comparably sensitive speakers, i'm supposed to expect one to get louder "because it's 4 ohms"? Um... no. Maybe it does get louder. Maybe its woofer has more excursion and surface area, maybe its tweeter is crossed higher, maybe its port is tuned lower. Who knows. The dealer sure didn't.

Tempted as I was to tell him to hook up whatever amplifier he thought wouldn't bottom the totems his "4 ohm is louder" argument really got on my nerves and I walked away. The uncritical and consumer is of course going to buy whatever garbage he's fed and then regurgitate it on audiogon when sellin said product.

 

[Dr. Parthipan]

what hifi have you got then? Its difficult to criticise these expensive products because they are out of your reach. No?

 

[Shakeydeal]

what hifi have you got then? Its difficult to criticise these expensive products because they are out of your reach. No?

Exactly. Kind of sounds like penis envy....

 

[GranteedEV]

what hifi have you got then? Its difficult to criticise these expensiveproducts because they are out of your reach. No?

LOL. So if chrysler sold a neon with leather seats for 200, 000 i couldn't criticize the stupidity of that?

I call things for what they are. The person willing to buy a 200k neon would accuse me of penis envy though and tell me i'd have to sit it in it to experience it, and how i'm just bitter for thinking i'd rather have a mitsubishi evo or a ;ambhorghini gallardo... things that actually have measurably superior performance. But then i'd just be told i'm generic and that person is way on another level.

 

[tom67]

Americans stay out of this...

what hifi have you got then? Its difficult to criticise these expensive products because they are out of your reach. No?

Its a Commonwealth battle......I'm betting on the Canadian. Calgary a land of extremes with tough people....almost daily stampedes..... requires speakers with 2" MDF......polar bears roaming in yards....poor Englishman disarmed by his government years ago...not a fair fight really...

 

[InTheIndustry]

what hifi have you got then? Its difficult to criticise these expensive products because they are out of your reach. No?

Dear "Dr.",

You're ascending a slippery slope with this comment. Your above post shows signs of frustration which, believe me, I empathize with. While I understand & agree with your underlying meaning, the statement itself is not a good gauge of audio experience or expertise. For example, a power center for one of my systems (yes, that's plural) costs more than your requested budget monitors you were asking for recommendations on. However, that does NOT mean that I am necessarily a better listener than you. What it does mean is that I'm qualified to speak as to its value to me, features, build quality, why it or other products from brand "x" might be good for some and why it might not.

Now, ask him what he's spent more than an hour testing, installing, setting up, and realistically shopping for and you'll probably find a chink in his armor to hammer away at & belittle.... If you want to be a jerk. But I digress......

Point is, hands on experience should count for a lot more than the ability to use Google and read specs. I've seen the RBH T30LSE recommended a few times in threads lately by people who have no experience or time on task with them. I had ordered a pair with the powered sub amps a few years ago when I was an RBH dealer. Before I took delivery a member on the forum asked to purchase them & I let them go. I even ordered the matching center & surrounds and hand delivered & installed them with a 5 channel Parasound New Classic 5250 for her in St. Louis.... Quite the drive! I can educatedly speak on as to who & why someone might be interested in those speakers @ $15K a pair + amps or perhaps why they might not.... and what I would be saying is 100% authentic. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCE. But just because I have experience with them does not mean that someone else who hasn't can't give them or a similar product or line a good listen and report back accurately with their impressions or offer a strong guestimate as to the quality of RBH speakers.

And, for the record, 60 days after they were installed two of the sub drivers blew out (these weren't over driven in her room by any means) and I had to order and ship her new ones that she put in. I'm pretty sure I still have the old drivers in my attic and will take pics and post them later tonight for those who may have doubts of my story. Also, RBH sent the new drivers ASAP and were very apologetic.

In the future, please try not to be so harsh as to other people's economic choices. Beat them up all you want for their lack of experience, but always be prepared for the axe to swing back the other way.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Not really his fault we don`t waste money on esoteroic crap, instead looking for actual performance. it`s the fault of the industry as a whole for perpetuating this sort of nonsense as fact. I`ve been to many a dealer where they`ll do everything to convince me that ``every piece in the signal chain makes an equal difference``.

Just the other day i walked into an electronics store and asked to listen to some Totems. they were set up so you stand about 2 feet away from them during the audition, which is dumb. I stepped back about 9 feet from the speakers and told him to turn it up. At my listening position they probably weren`t even at 85db (large room so little gain) yet being run full range these `towers` woofers were bottoming.

Instead of telling me that i asked to push the mere 5 inch peerless drivers on the totems just too damn hard, he tells me that won`t happen with another amplifier. Please. I can tell the difference between a woofer bottoming and an amplifier clipping.

Further still, he tells me the reason these totems were bottoming is because they`re 8 ohms and a 4 ohm speaker will get louder with the amplifier "because they draw more current". I asked him the sensitivity of the 4 ohm speaker and he tells me "92db". I asked him "per what?" and he tells me "huh?". I said "92db per what?" and he says 92db/w/m. The 8 ohm speakers are 87db/w/m. Those are efficiency ratings, not sensitivity. Yet 92db/w/m @ 4 ohm is only like 89db/2.83/m. So between pretty much comparably sensitive speakers, i'm supposed to expect one to get louder "because it's 4 ohms"? Um... no. Maybe it does get louder. Maybe its woofer has more excursion and surface area, maybe its tweeter is crossed higher, maybe its port is tuned lower. Who knows. The dealer sure didn't.

Tempted as I was to tell him to hook up whatever amplifier he thought wouldn't bottom the totems his "4 ohm is louder" argument really got on my nerves and I walked away. The uncritical and consumer is of course going to buy whatever garbage he's fed and then regurgitate it on audiogon when sellin said product.

The dealer was an idiot.... Many of us are but that happens in every profession, right? Also, Totems are excellent excellent speakers as long as they are used properly. What I mean by that is that Totem gives their dealers several documents stating recommended room size, amplifier needs, type of listening, and volume levels for every single model they make. If your dealer just randomly cranked a pair up that aren't designed for a high output like that well, yeah..... they would struggle to keep up.

 

[InTheIndustry]

LOL. So if chrysler sold a neon with leather seats for 200, 000 i couldn't criticize the stupidity of that?

I call things for what they are. The person willing to buy a 200k neon would accuse me of penis envy though and tell me i'd have to sit it in it to experience it, and how i'm just bitter for thinking i'd rather have a mitsubishi evo or a ;ambhorghini gallardo... things that actually have measurably superior performance. But then i'd just be told i'm generic and that person is way on another level.

This analogy doesn't hold water. It's a hypothetical. A made up situation designed solely to prove your point in which, of course it will because.... you made it up specifically to do so. 1st rule of any debate is: Never let someone argue against you using a hypothetical because you cannot win against it. 2nd rule: Try to sneak in a hypothetical wherever you can.

If you have to go not only that far off subject only to then also have to make up an imaginary example to prove your point, how correct is your point to begin with?

 

[3db]

what hifi have you got then? Its difficult to criticise these expensive products because they are out of your reach. No?

You are beginning to smell suspicously like a Green Mountain plant. It is clear from your comments on this thread and the bogus B&W thread you opened that you really don't understand speakers or electronics. Instead of throwing out accusations around of money and affordability, why don't you embark on an education about this topic and learn a few things. This way you may understand what we are talking about. I personaly won't buy a speaker on specs alone and I will audition them. I will also audition speakers without specs as I'm a curious sort but in that case, I'll make dam sure I reference them against a known source. Not publishing speaker specs is hiding behind a marketting veil and in most cases is hiding something period.

 

[InTheIndustry]

I've seen the RBH T30LSE recommended a few times in threads lately by people who have no experience or time on task with them. I had ordered a pair with the powered sub amps a few years ago when I was an RBH dealer. Before I took delivery a member on the forum asked to purchase them & I let them go. I even ordered the matching center & surrounds and hand delivered & installed them with a 5 channel Parasound New Classic 5250 for her in St. Louis.... Quite the drive! I can educatedly speak on as to who & why someone might be interested in those speakers @ $15K a pair + amps or perhaps why they might not.... and what I would be saying is 100% authentic. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCE. But just because I have experience with them does not mean that someone else who hasn't can't give them or a similar product or line a good listen and report back accurately with their impressions or offer a strong guestimate as to the quality of RBH speakers.

And, for the record, 60 days after they were installed two of the sub drivers blew out (these weren't over driven in her room by any means) and I had to order and ship her new ones that she put in. I'm pretty sure I still have the old drivers in my attic and will take pics and post them later tonight for those who may have doubts of my story. Also, RBH sent the new drivers ASAP and were very apologetic.

Quoted for truth....







These are the 10" bottom woofers that had blown in a single tower of a T30LSE pair.

 

[GranteedEV]

The dealer was an idiot.... Many of us are but that happens in every profession, right? Also, Totems are excellent excellent speakers as long as they are used properly. What I mean by that is that Totem gives their dealers several documents stating recommended room size, amplifier needs, type of listening, and volume levels for every single model they make. If your dealer just randomly cranked a pair up that aren't designed for a high output like that well, yeah..... they would struggle to keep up.

my anecdote wasn't meant to bash totem speakers. i agree, that little tower was obviously meant for low level listening in a smaller room. the issue was that the dealer wouldn't just say that plain and simple. I wouldn't expect many two driver speakers run full range at high volumes to give me concert level SPL at distance but i would expect a good salesman to know why not.

This analogy doesn't hold water. It's a hypothetical. A made up situation designed solely to prove your point in which, of course it will because.... you made it up specifically to do so. 1st rule of any debate is: Never let someone argue against you using a hypothetical because you cannot win against it. 2nd rule: Try to sneak in a hypothetical wherever you can.

You're right. What's my point?

My point was:

A tube amplifier with a high output impedance will struggle to be free of audible distortion with more speaker impedance loads than a robust solid state amplifier with a higher power rating into lower impedance loads, a lower output impedance.

In my eyes distortion is always going to occur, but the more I can mitigate at a level like electronics the better a signal will be, even if said distortion (in the case of high output impedance) results in a more listenable fake sound. What does experience have to do with clearly measured distortion? Distortion and transparency do not go hand in hand.

my example was flawed because it was hypothetical. So here's something I will liken a tube amplifier to which isn't hypothetical: Wait I can't, google searching for "overpriced high distortion" brings me to audio sites discussing tube amplifiers. That's because off the top of my head the audio industry is one of the most guilty out there of keeping customers uninformed. It's both the fault of the industry and the customers' own negligence. Surely you as a professional know both extremes (the "bose" crowd and the "what costs most" crowd).

Anyways I don't have an issue with tube amplifiers for hobbyism or novelty's sake. I do have an issue with the idea that they are consistently more transparent. Especially because they're more dependant on speaker load.

 

[GranteedEV]

Quoted for truth....

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These are the 10" bottom woofers that had blown in a single tower of a T30LSE pair.

RBH has some nice warranty customer service from my experience as well. What exactly was wrong with those woofers? sounds like a fun diy repair project

 

[InTheIndustry]

RBH has some nice warranty customer service from my experience as well. What exactly was wrong with those woofers? sounds like a fun diy repair project

They blew. Just randomly started bottoming out. I would best describe it as waffling. Take a pinch of your cheek (No, not that one. The one on your face ) & flap it quickly. That's the way it was described to me, anyway. I'm not anywhere near St. Louis so I couldn't go diagnose the issue. The speaker's owner called me & I called RBH and they shipped me new ones to get to her.

She said it was very easy to fix. Just a matter of pulling some screws out & attaching the leads. Although, she is a surgeon afterall.

And LOL.... It's never a fun project when your brand new $15,000 pair of speakers blow out!

 

[GranteedEV]

And LOL.... It's never a fun project when your brand new $15,000 pair of speakers blow out!

it is when you're taking out state of the art aluminum subwoofers under warranty

 

[Dr. Parthipan]

They blew. Just randomly started bottoming out. I would best describe it as waffling. Take a pinch of your cheek (No, not that one. The one on your face ) & flap it quickly. That's the way it was described to me, anyway. I'm not anywhere near St. Louis so I couldn't go diagnose the issue. The speaker's owner called me & I called RBH and they shipped me new ones to get to her.

She said it was very easy to fix. Just a matter of pulling some screws out & attaching the leads. Although, she is a surgeon afterall.

And LOL.... It's never a fun project when your brand new $15,000 pair of speakers blow out!

You say it is a 'she' that you sold those speakers to? Female audiophiles are rare by the way, funny the woofers blew out maybe she did it? Also even the ones who can afford expensive products aren't necessarily qualified to speak, I agree.