GIK Acoustics 244 Sound Panel Review

Glenn Kuras

Glenn Kuras

Full Audioholic
ned said:
Would that be a couch that double as traps?:D Could you give us more hint? Thanks.
damn you got me!!!!!!!!!!! Yes it is a couch.. Darn it darn it darn it!!:D

Glenn
 
Ethan Winer

Ethan Winer

Full Audioholic
Scott,

> Tie dye? It's OVER, Ethan. The sixties are OVER. :) <

ROF,L. Hey, you said T-shirts and dye, so I just put the two together.

--Ethan
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
It is impressive, but not unprecedented. If you watch the MiniTraps Demonstration video on our web site you'll see eight MiniTraps making a real improvement all the way down to the 40 Hz lower limit we tested to. I have other tests showing meaningful absorption down to around 30 Hz using MondoTraps. This brings up an interesting related point:
Um, Mondo traps are 4" thick. Unless you are defying the laws of physics and/or putting the panels in the exact wave location to partly reduce the modal energy, I refer you back to Clint's post and reference to an article we did in post #76

There are some practical guidelines for acoustical panel absorption that are helpful. Specifically, you can count on 1" panels working down to ~1kHz, 2" panels going to ~500Hz and 4" panels absorbing down to ~250Hz. You can also get close to 4" performance by standing a 2" panel, 2" off the wall.

This is for any kind of real absorption amounts.

This article, which covers a lecture by Anthony Grimani of PMI Ltd., is very helpful and page 3 discusses absorption panels specifically.

As for the panels themselves, if they are made correctly, they are all very similar in their effectiveness. Unless someone has a really bad design or doesn't know their physics, you are primarily shopping for options, features, the installer, etc...
 
B

Buckeye_Nut

Audioholic Field Marshall
Vaughan Odendaa said:
Glenn, I was just wondering, are there any threads that show more pictures of your panels ? Or any links ? Because I have looked at all the pics at your website and I have seen some pics in this thread.

I guess I just would like to see more. See, I have a significant other and this significant other needs convincing and I need more pictures to convince her. :D

Heh.

--Sincerely,
I'll show you some soon enough. I have 8 GIK 244s hung now, and 2 more will be arriving soon. Once the final two are hung along with my new 'black' drapes(yes, black), I plan to take some pics and post them. These things are great and have made a huge difference in my HT.
 
B

Buckeye_Nut

Audioholic Field Marshall
Vaughan Odendaa said:
Well, when I decide to bite the bullet I will definitely go with the white colour. And since my walls are white, it should blend in quite nicely. I just need some more pictures of the white coloured panels, if possible.

Those black coloured panels looks great, especially for those in dedicated home theaters, but for my living room at least, I most surely would be kicked to the curb if I chose it. :)

--Sincerely,
Yikes...

Your wife wont like my setup.

I just painted my walls daaaaark RED, and hung 8 black panels.(two more to arrive soon)
We're going for the black/red theme for our HT:cool:
When the black drapes arrive, we'll be rockin'...........:p :p

The panels made a huge difference in sound though. Interestingly enough, my wife was totally into the entire HT transformation. She was even into removing every painting, nicknack, CHILDREN PICTURES, and everything not movie related to transform the room to a movie theme. I feel like a lucky guy:)
As of right now, my system pics below are completely irrelevent because my room looks absolutely nothing like the one pictured below.
 
V

Vaughan Odendaa

Senior Audioholic
Thanks Buckeye_Nut, I look forward to seeing your pictures !

I asked a few questions on page 8 that were never answered. I wanted to know how the panels could absorb down to 30 hz or 40hz. Not because I doubt that it's true but because I would like to understand how the panels absorb that low.

If a 40 hz wavelength is 10 m in length, then how would a panel absorb down to 40 hz ? The same goes for 30hz ? I spoke to my manager and he tells me that it is impossible for a 4" panel to absorb down that low. Now he isn't the last word on this which is why I wanted to understand from both Ethan and Glenn how the panels absorb that low.

Because it got me thinking about long wavelengths. Please explain this for me ! Thank you.

--Sincerely,
 
S

ScottMayo

Audioholic
Vaughan Odendaa said:
Because it got me thinking about long wavelengths. Please explain this for me ! Thank you.
--Sincerely,
This is admittedly simplified, but still, it helps to visualize it. Pretend you're a particle of air, being pushed around by sound. You're being yanked forward and back by the frequency of the sound.

If it's a high frequency, and you're near a sheet of, say, OC 703, it's not hard to see what will happen. You'll get pushed into the fibers, collide with some, give up energy in the form of heat, and then the air pressure will switch and you'll be dragged back through the fibers again, giving up more energy, getting more randomized. Repeat. Pretty soon you're just bumbling at random in and near the fibers, getting in the way of other air particles, with little energy of your own and a very diminished relationship to the original frequency. You're just random kinetic noise at a very low energy level. You have been assimilated.

What happens at low frequency is more interesting - and not as effective. You get pushed into the trap, but your buddies behind you just keep pushing. You get forced through the trap and you're still being pushed. If there's air space behind the trap (as should be), the pressure there keeps building.

The pressure wave, after an eternity of a 60th of a second or so, finally falls off. And there are you and your buddies, squeezed behind this trap. It's time to leave - so you all flood out through the fibers.

Except you can't. You're in each other's way and there are fibers to get through again. A bunch of your buddies get knocked sideways in the rush to get out. Eddies form, causing delays. It's like what happened on the way in, but even less organized, because your friends have been bouncing around for a bit and have more randomized orientations. The higher pressure behind the trap (we're not talking much higher) changes the way you interact and tangle, and the result is that you all get back out again, but with varying delay. Basically, what's happening is the phase gets a little smeared. The air behind the trap is averaging out the pressure changes, just a little. In electronics this would be an RC network. In acoustics it's friction and viscosity. Traps with membranes use the mass of the membrane to introduce even more loss (much more, as the membrane rubs against with the fibers) and more smear.

No, it's not extremely effective, which is why traps work better with high frequencies than low ones. Traps using varying density materials can work a little better than uniform ones, but ultimately, no flat trap, even in a corner with a much larger air space behind it, does a perfect job. (I'm still looking for the "Acoustic sponge" that absorbes all and radiates nothing.) So you might end up putting in more traps, or adding helmholtz resonators, and messing with diffusion. Getting a really good solution takes work, practice and thought. Getting an insanely great solution takes all that, plus more space.

In my room I have two extra-large diamater Sonotubes, with holes drilled in the surface, and lined inside with OC 703. They stand floor to ceiling. (This was not fun to build, and they stay hidden behind curtains for a reason.) They help. They definitely qualify for the "insane" part of insanely great, though.

But you get decent results just slinging flat traps in - they are much, MUCH better than nothing, even for bass. I've yet to hear anyone who put in a good number of traps, be anything less than blown away by the improvement. If you can't redesign a room from the ground up, putting in some traps is still very worthwhile.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
If a 40 hz wavelength is 10 m in length, then how would a panel absorb down to 40 hz ? The same goes for 30hz ? I spoke to my manager and he tells me that it is impossible for a 4" panel to absorb down that low. Now he isn't the last word on this which is why I wanted to understand from both Ethan and Glenn how the panels absorb that low.

Because it got me thinking about long wavelengths. Please explain this for me ! Thank you.
They don't, at least NOT effectively or predictably. While corner traps will provide at least something, this is why you want to construct bass traps and resonators which are far more involving than a 4" panel if you are serious about room correction. More to follow on this later.
 
Ethan Winer

Ethan Winer

Full Audioholic
Gene and Clint,

> Mondo traps are 4" thick. Unless you are defying the laws of physics and/or putting the panels in the exact wave location to partly reduce the modal energy, I refer you back to Clint's post and reference to an article we did <

Short answer: Tony is wrong because he misses a key point.

More to the point, empirical evidence trumps theory every time. Watch the video on our site, and see the attached graph that shows clearly a substantial improvement in both raw response and ringing down to very low frequencies using our traps. Even at the lowest mode frequency of 42 Hz for that room, the ringing was reduced at least a little. Clearly the bass traps used for the graph below work to well below 250 Hz!

Understand that you do not need 100 percent absorption at a given frequency to make a big improvement. Let's say a wave reflects off a wall with no attenuation and creates a null. In theory the null will be infinitely deep, but in practice you can't have 100 percent reflection so 30 dB is more typical. Now, let's say you put bass traps in front of that wall and the trap absorbs only 25 percent at the null frequency. This means the reflected wave comes back 3 dB less than full strength, so now the null is only 11 dB deep instead of 30 dB deep. An increase of 19 dB is a very big improvement!

--Ethan
 

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gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Short answer: Tony is wrong because he misses a key point.
That’s a rather bold and inaccurate assessment of Tony’s article, especially since he is such a noted Acoustician in the industry. Tony’s article is in fact correct. He is referring to panels mounted on a wall. Since in your application, you are mounting the panels diagonally across a corner a good deal of air space is created behind the panel and yes it does help with low frequency absorption. Keep in mind however, as others in this thread pointed out, you need a thickness of about 1/10th the wavelength (1/4 is preferred). So to be really effective down to 30Hz, this would be 4ft (1/10th wavelength) or about 9 ½ feet (1/4 wavelength, preferred). This is also dependant on the density of the fiberglass you are using.

There are far more effective and predictable solutions for creating bass traps rather then sticking 4” square panels in the corners of the room. Nobody is arguing that it doesn’t help low frequency absorption, but down to 30Hz with predictability is questionable at best.
 
Glenn Kuras

Glenn Kuras

Full Audioholic
>There are far more effective and predictable solutions for creating bass traps rather then sticking 4” square panels in the corners of the room. Nobody is arguing that it doesn’t help low frequency absorption, but down to 30Hz with predictability is questionable at best.<

I do have to agree with you on this point, but I have to also agree with some of Ethans points (Not the ones where he is calling Tony WRONG though).. Here is a clearer graph of what traps can do and yes they are straddling corners.. Did it help 40 Hz? heck yes, but nothing like it did from 60 hz up.. So I think the bottem line is if you have HUGE problems below 60 hz then you may need something different.

Glenn
 

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Vaughan Odendaa

Senior Audioholic
Thank you for answering my questions. One question though; what is a membrane ? :)

I got myself the "Master Handbook of Acoustics" so I'm well on my way to becoming a great acoustic scientist.

--Sincerely,
 
V

Vaughan Odendaa

Senior Audioholic
Glenn, I sent you an email. Thanks.

--Sincerely,
 
Ethan Winer

Ethan Winer

Full Audioholic
Gene,

> That’s a rather bold and inaccurate assessment of Tony’s article, especially since he is such a noted Acoustician in the industry. <

With about 70 published magazine articles under my belt I'm quite well noted too. :D But arguing credentials isn't productive, and is beside the point. Yes, panels flat on a wall do not usually absorb bass as well as when mounted straddling corners. So that's why Glenn and I recommend mounting them across corners!

I'll also mention that I've met Tony and I absolutely agree he knows his stuff. Better than most. A lot better than most.

> you are mounting the panels diagonally across a corner a good deal of air space is created behind the panel <

Yes, but it's also the corner placement itself that helps them to absorb so well to lower frequencies. If you look at the data on our web site you'll see a comparison of our traps with a four-inch gap in the center of the test room, and you can compare that to corner mounting in the same room. Obviously, mounting them across a corner gives an even larger gap than four inches, but the correct explanation for the very large difference in absorption below about 200 Hz is simply that traps work better in corners because that's "where the bass lives" so to speak.

> you need a thickness of about 1/10th the wavelength (1/4 is preferred). <

Needed and preferred for what? Total absorption? I don't disagree. But that's why I pointed out that even 25 percent absorption is enough to make a real dent in a deep null.

> down to 30Hz with predictability is questionable at best. <

I don't really disagree with that either. But it's important to keep this in context. Often someone will tell me they have a bad problem at 30 Hz or some other very low frequency. They say they have no bass traps now, and their low frequency response is fine except for that one really low frequency peak. First I ask how they're measuring, and it's almost always with a third octave test CD. So I explain they need to measure to 1 Hz resolution in order to know the true response and see how bad it really is. Then I explain that while it's great to be perfectly flat down to 30 Hz, far more important is to be flat from about 80 Hz to 300 Hz because those are the fullness and clarity ranges for bass insruments. Most of the stuff below 40 or 50 Hz is movie sound effects (and the occasional orchestra bass drum), so if an explosion is a little too loud or sustains a little too long, that's not as musically damaging as having numerous peaks and deep nulls in the mid and upper bass range.

--Ethan
 
tomd51

tomd51

Audioholic General
Vaughan, seeing how you've asked this five times in the same thread and haven't had any response, I don't think you're going to get your answer here.

You might want to try to open a separate thread for it in the same forum or see what a few internet searches pull up. From what little seen on this, I believe it is the manner in which the components of the panel are constructed. I think it may be similar to an egg crate design that can be seen here... -TD
 
Ethan Winer

Ethan Winer

Full Audioholic
Vaughan,

> Membrane ? <

I'll be glad to write 1,000 words on the function of membranes with bass traps. :D But it seemed like you're asking Glenn questions specifically about his products, which I'm not qualified to answer. If your interest is generic let me know and I'll be glad to help.

--Ethan
 
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Vaughan Odendaa

Senior Audioholic
Ethan, thank you for offering your advise on the matter. You can expect to get a PM from me. . .sometime. :)

--Sincerely,
 
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Vaughan Odendaa

Senior Audioholic
Sorry if I wasn't being specific.

I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to ask questions concerning Glenns products, I just thought that since the thread was entitled "GIK Acoustics 244 review", and since I'm highly interested in them, I thought that I would ask some questions concerning them here.

Again, I apologize.

--Sincerely,
 

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