General Amp question

[mtrycrafts]

You just don't get it, they sound completely different. Hugely different, it is not bias it is just my ears.

I get it just fine. Your ears are not immune from being unreliable. Actually, it is your bran that is doing all this, being biased, filling in things that are not there, being unreliable at times and being fooled.

So, unless you compared the two properly, you have zero idea what is real and what is just a perception of unknown quality, unreliable.
Them are the facts of the sciences; don't blame me for it.

 

[PENG]

I believe what he's trying to say is that there exist small differences in sound pressure level that are interpreted by your auditory system as "that sounds better" not as "that sounds louder". In other words, before one system is enough louder than the other for you to tell it's louder (without instrumentation), you will already detect a difference as a more pleasing sound.

Thus, to remove that bias from your comparison, you must match SPL. If you interpret that adjustment as "making the systems sound the same", then you are simply agreeing that correctly operating amplifiers sound the same.

A couple of things to add:

1) The amps being compared should be in like new condition if not new. Electronics do age and regarless of the compensating systems, age does affect performance.

2) The way he talked about his Kenwood, I doubt it was in perfect condition, or it was really an entry level model.

I used to own a near top mod model Kenwood intergrated, When I sold it, I got good price for it because they guy who bought it thought it sounded great. it sounded quite decent and powerful, nothing like the way Seth described his.

 

[Ampdog]

I could type till i was blue in the face listing the testing ive done with different amps in my systems & take the time to list each & every step of my testing with measuring equipment but commenting on this any further will only lead to a flurry of the standard google link nonsense,what i will say is that before anybody automaticaly believes one side or the other in the amp debate they should try a few different amps in their own home then let their ears decide.

I did not question your taste or experience, and you will not get "standard google link nonsense" from me. Neither do I "automatically believe(s) one side or the other..." I think you shot the wrong guy!!

I simply asked what you meant by forcing amplifiers to sound alike, and the term "not playing in their natural state". I.e., how does one force two different amplifiers to sound alike, and what is an amplifier's natural state as compared to .... what else?

Just that!

 

[mtrycrafts]

I think we can all agree amps can sound different. Why would we nitpick that?

I have heard some horrible stereo systems I attributed partially to the amp distorting way sooner than expected based on the rated output. I am talking about cheap stereo receivers.

I have also seen those car amps with rated 10% distortions. Its hard to tell with those amps what they sound like driven with half the (bogus) rated power, but I have my suspicions.

As for being able to tell the different between a Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo etc. I am sure some people can. After all their electronics do differ. But that's beside the point. Clearly some amps are inferior with audible differences.

Some like to infer that some of us claim ALL amps sound the same. No such claim is ever made

What some of us try to point out is that one has to do a proper comparison to know which amp sounds different from our list of components to be compared. And, sighted comparison is very misleading by its biasing nature. Topology of design is not an automatic indicator for audible differences:

David Rich and Peter Aczel, 'Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent,' 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

You just don't get it, they sound completely different. Hugely different, it is not bias it is just my ears.

Seth, you know you could theoretically level match your clock radio and an amplifier, and do a DBT and not hear a difference. You would simply need to listen very closely since it would be at a very low level.

 

[highfihoney]

I did not question your taste or experience, and you will not get "standard google link nonsense" from me. Neither do I "automatically believe(s) one side or the other..." I think you shot the wrong guy!!

I simply asked what you meant by forcing amplifiers to sound alike, and the term "not playing in their natural state". I.e., how does one force two different amplifiers to sound alike, and what is an amplifier's natural state as compared to .... what else?

Just that!

Hi ampdog,i wasnt saying that you would drop the google link bomb yourself but it gets to a point with these threads that any of us who have read & posted in these threads know it wont be long before the google links come out & we start getting asked about protocol, bias,testing control ect,i also wasnt trying to shoot you i was only pointing out that by stating my opnion that i would be opening up the thread to another blitz from the google link guy who shares no personal experience with these topics but only condems others for posting what works for them.

I will give you a direct answer about your question,i truly believe that level matching is forcing amps to sound alike & here are my reasons why,dbt's are always set up with a goal in mind & that goal is to prove that all amps sound alike not to discover if there are differences,a true unbiased experiment would not only cover what each listener heard but it would also cover measurable & visual differences within the sound spectrum,i can & have taken two different amplifiers & matched their output then added a spectrum analyzer to the chain measuring the sound in the room from a fixed location,after both amps were level matched for output i can see the full spectrum of what is actually being heard in the room & any differences show up on the display of the analyzer.

I hope i didnt come off as an *** when i answered you the way i did because that was not my intent & if i offended you i apologize but i have posted this before & was met with a ton of google links & round after round of intense questioning,no matter the answers i gave my answers were met with yet another round of questioning,my point is this,if a spectrum analyzer that is set to measure the sound in the room can show sonic differences than so can the human ear.

 

[Seth=L]

Seth, you know you could theoretically level match your clock radio and an amplifier, and do a DBT and not hear a difference. You would simply need to listen very closely since it would be at a very low level.

Yea, I am pretty sure that would happen. It doesn't help the test when the clock radios are often mono.

I have modified my Altec Lansing speaker system to power full sized speakers. While it sounds good, it sounds much different from other amplifiers in many ways.

 

[highfihoney]

Seth, you know you could theoretically level match your clock radio and an amplifier, and do a DBT and not hear a difference. You would simply need to listen very closely since it would be at a very low level.

Hey buck,did you ever get to see the Klipsch displays back in the 70's & 80's where the dealers would hook a transistor radio up to a pair of k horns to show everybody how easy they were to drive.