General Amp question

[PENG]

I am not saying that all Kenwood receivers and Sony products are bad, just more times than not they are not as good as the competitors. I am using a Sony receiver right know and it is not anywhere near as good as the Onkyos, the Denon, or the Pioneer Elite that I have used before.

To be fair to Sony, I think only their DB/ES series should be compared with Denon, Pioneer Elite models.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Amplifiers do sound different, it is insane to say that they all sound almost alike.

Show us a post where someone has stated that "ALL" amps sound the same.
But, what has been stated, that well designed, modern amps operated withing their design limits, levels matched, DBT, will indeed not be audibly different. No reason why they should.

I have owned many receivers and a few amplifiers. One example of an amplifier comparison: I had a Carver 5 channel amplifier rated for 80 watts per channel, and a Kenwood 2 channel rated for 150 watts per channel. The Carver defeated it in every test. Note that I used a Rotel Preamp and a Pioneer Elite CD player and PSB floorstanding speakers in the comparison. The Kenwood made noise, didn't have much headroom, and sounded if it was just squeezing by, no dynamics, and it was bright.

I would bet that the protocol used to compare was not levels matched to .1 dB spl, not was bias controlled for. A huge reason why this is an unreliable anecdote at best.

Different companies have different approaches to amplifier designs, so there is no way for them to sound the same.

Research shows otherwise:
David Rich and Peter Aczel, 'Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent,' 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.

 

[highfihoney]

Different companies have different approaches to amplifier designs, so there is no way for them to sound the same.

I couldnt agree more,the only thing thats accomplished with the level matching that so many worship is that both amps are forced to sound alike,most amplifiers when ran in their natural state will sound different.

 

[Ampdog]

......the only thing thats accomplished with the level matching that so many worship is that both amps are forced to sound alike,most amplifiers when ran in their natural state will sound different.

Not sure what you mean by that, Highfihoney. Forced to sound alike? It has been shown that a small difference in level will favour the louder option. Surely that is then not an indication of relative quality, simply that one was louder. How is the level of volume responsible for amplifiers not running in their natural state? (Apart, of course, from avoiding any form of overload.)

 

[Seth=L]

Seth=L
If you feel that way get rid of your receiver(s) and get some separates. The resale value is much higher if you don't like something and you get a lot more flexibility. The resale value on your average new receiver is zip next year. That Adcom, NAD or ARC preamp will be an item you can sell 2 or three years from now with little or no loss. Buying this kind of stuff used keeps you from having to deal with the initial depreciation. The same goes for power amps from these and other companies.

majorloser
Are those Behringer amps OK in bridged mode for 4ohm or lower loads and continuous operation?

I am a college student on a very low budget, had to sell what seperates I had to make rent. I made some unwise purchases and it backfired, lesson learned.

 

[Seth=L]

To be fair to Sony, I think only their DB/ES series should be compared with Denon, Pioneer Elite models.

No doubt.

Show us a post where someone has stated that "ALL" amps sound the same.
But, what has been stated, that well designed, modern amps operated withing their design limits, levels matched, DBT, will indeed not be audibly different. No reason why they should.

Someone said most amplifiers, well designed ones, are completely transparent at least audibly. I disagree with that because there are some very well designed amplifiers out there that do sound very marginally different.

I would bet that the protocol used to compare was not levels matched to .1 dB spl, not was bias controlled for. A huge reason why this is an unreliable anecdote at best.

Sorry, I am having trouble understanding this statement. Are you saying that because I don't have testing equipement that I can't discern the differences in sound? If that is what you are implying, then please,... they are a far cry from the same. And the Kenwood is far from sounding great.

Research shows otherwise:
David Rich and Peter Aczel, 'Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent,' 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.

please ellaborate.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Someone said most amplifiers, well designed ones, are completely transparent at least audibly. I disagree with that because there are some very well designed amplifiers out there that do sound very marginally different.

That is a far cry from 'ALL' amps being transparent, right?

You certainly are allowed to disagree. But, evidence speaks volumes.

Sorry, I am having trouble understanding this statement. Are you saying that because I don't have testing equipement that I can't discern the differences in sound? If that is what you are implying, then please,... they are a far cry from the same. And the Kenwood is far from sounding great.

Not at all. That is not what I said. But you do need some equipment to set up a proper test, and, to control bias.
You do have to level match components to .1 dB spl; that is mandatory. And, you do have to do it under DBT protocol. Simple.


As to the citation, self evident.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Not sure what you mean by that, Highfihoney. Forced to sound alike? It has been shown that a small difference in level will favour the louder option. Surely that is then not an indication of relative quality, simply that one was louder. How is the level of volume responsible for amplifiers not running in their natural state? (Apart, of course, from avoiding any form of overload.)

Don't think this will matter to him. We have been around the block to no avail. You will see

 

[Seth=L]

Someone said most amplifiers, well designed ones, are completely transparent at least audibly. I disagree with that because there are some very well designed amplifiers out there that do sound very marginally different.

That is a far cry from 'ALL' amps being transparent, right?

You certainly are allowed to disagree. But, evidence speaks volumes.

Sorry, I am having trouble understanding this statement. Are you saying that because I don't have testing equipement that I can't discern the differences in sound? If that is what you are implying, then please,... they are a far cry from the same. And the Kenwood is far from sounding great.

Not at all. That is not what I said. But you do need some equipment to set up a proper test, and, to control bias.
You do have to level match components to .1 dB spl; that is mandatory. And, you do have to do it under DBT protocol. Simple.


As to the citation, self evident.

I said almost all, as someone had said something similar to that, I never said "all" conclusively.

And I still don't get what you are getting at, you are saying they need to be at the exact same or very close db for me to make an evaluation on which sounds better, I don't necessarily understand what these tests mean.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I said almost all, as someone had said something similar to that, I never said "all" conclusively.

This is what you said above:

it is insane to say that they all sound almost alike.

You said almost alike. That is not the same. And, no one has said this either.

And I still don't get what you are getting at, you are saying they need to be at the exact same or very close db for me to make an evaluation on which sounds better, I don't necessarily understand what these tests mean.


No, they need to be at the same level for you to differentiate, a difference, between two amps, not to pick a preference between them. And, you cannot know which amp is playing when, double blind, or your bias will mislead your selections. Like having an open book test. What good is that when it gives the answers?

 

[Seth=L]

You just don't get it, they sound completely different. Hugely different, it is not bias it is just my ears.

 

[PENG]

mtrycrafts, do you really want to go down this road again??

 

[highfihoney]

Not sure what you mean by that, Highfihoney. Forced to sound alike? It has been shown that a small difference in level will favour the louder option. Surely that is then not an indication of relative quality, simply that one was louder. How is the level of volume responsible for amplifiers not running in their natural state? (Apart, of course, from avoiding any form of overload.)

I could type till i was blue in the face listing the testing ive done with different amps in my systems & take the time to list each & every step of my testing with measuring equipment but commenting on this any further will only lead to a flurry of the standard google link nonsense,what i will say is that before anybody automaticaly believes one side or the other in the amp debate they should try a few different amps in their own home then let their ears decide.

 

[MichaelJHuman]

I think we can all agree amps can sound different. Why would we nitpick that?

I have heard some horrible stereo systems I attributed partially to the amp distorting way sooner than expected based on the rated output. I am talking about cheap stereo receivers.

I have also seen those car amps with rated 10% distortions. Its hard to tell with those amps what they sound like driven with half the (bogus) rated power, but I have my suspicions.

As for being able to tell the different between a Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo etc. I am sure some people can. After all their electronics do differ. But that's beside the point. Clearly some amps are inferior with audible differences.

 

[wire]

You just don't get it, they sound completely different. Hugely different, it is not bias it is just my ears.

Seth
When you look at Carver .
The M series where Modded to sound like high end amps ( like Conrad Johnson ) .
The TFM series where Modded to sound like Bob Carvers Silver Sevens ( tube amps ) .
If you look at the Carver manuals on these amps { there distortion levels are higher } , They differ alot from your Mass Chinse and Japanese specs . That is how he gets the Amps to sound closer to tube amps .
The TFM - X series where not modded to sound like tubes , because of the THX scam .

I would like to try out the Sunfire gear , but its out of my range and no one sells it where i live .

 

[wire]

You just don't get it, they sound completely different. Hugely different, it is not bias it is just my ears.

Right now i run a 5.1 system for movies .
Carver CT-17
Sony N220 4 channel
Carver TFM 35 2 channel
I had the TFM 35 laying around , so i decided to use it as my 2 center channel amp ( replacing a Kenwood and JBL amp ) .
What a difference , much softer sound then the others ( so sharp ) . Now i can listin to it much louder with the Carver . Now i just have to replace the Sony 4 channel , with a multi channel Carver , and the system will kick *** .
There is a big difference in Amps and there sound .

 

[wire]

OK, I can agree that weight does not descimate all. But it can be one of many helpfull factors in chosing an amplifier without actually hearing it.

Amplifiers do sound different, it is insane to say that they all sound almost alike. I have owned many receivers and a few amplifiers. One example of an amplifier comparison: I had a Carver 5 channel amplifier rated for 80 watts per channel, and a Kenwood 2 channel rated for 150 watts per channel. The Carver defeated it in every test. Note that I used a Rotel Preamp and a Pioneer Elite CD player and PSB floorstanding speakers in the comparison. The Kenwood made noise, didn't have much headroom, and sounded if it was just squeezing by, no dynamics, and it was bright.

Different companies have different approaches to amplifier designs, so there is no way for them to sound the same.

I am not saying that all Kenwood receivers and Sony products are bad, just more times than not they are not as good as the competitors. I am using a Sony receiver right know and it is not anywhere near as good as the Onkyos, the Denon, or the Pioneer Elite that I have used before.

Carver gear is in a different class than Kenwood and Sony . Carver in its day was in the same class as NAD , which i owned both and sold my NAD gear for Bryston and Carver . .

 

[wire]

I first want to thank everyone who has helped me to learn about HT when posting questions on this site. When upgrading an amplifier can sound actually get better with less wattage if it is a higher end amp? For example, I am using a B&K Ref 7250 and one day will probably want to upgrade. This amp is rated at 200x5. If I were to buy a Mark Levinson at 100x5, would the sound actually be better? Mark Levinson seems to be a higher end amp than the B&K that is why I use it as an example. Does wattage really matter when it comes to higher end amplifiers? I hope this makes sense as a question?

Try some different brands , go to some shops with a good return policies .
Decide which you like the best . There are quite a few choices out there .

 

[wire]

I think we can all agree amps can sound different.
As for being able to tell the different between a Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo etc. I am sure some people can. After all their electronics do differ. But that's beside the point. Clearly some amps are inferior with audible differences.

Ever since i was a kid , I didnt like the sound of Yammy ( to damn tinny ) .

 

[rmongiovi]

Sorry, I am having trouble understanding this statement. Are you saying that because I don't have testing equipement that I can't discern the differences in sound? If that is what you are implying, then please,... they are a far cry from the same. And the Kenwood is far from sounding great.

I believe what he's trying to say is that there exist small differences in sound pressure level that are interpreted by your auditory system as "that sounds better" not as "that sounds louder". In other words, before one system is enough louder than the other for you to tell it's louder (without instrumentation), you will already detect a difference as a more pleasing sound.

Thus, to remove that bias from your comparison, you must match SPL. If you interpret that adjustment as "making the systems sound the same", then you are simply agreeing that correctly operating amplifiers sound the same.