Gas (Pricing) Is Getting Flatulent

[emorphien]

I fear our hope lies with this mysterious Bakken Formation in North Dakota that no one in politics or the media seems to want to talk about. (It supposedly contains oil in equivalent amounts to Saudi Arabia!!) Then there is the real solution, and that is some form of alternative energy such as solar, tidal, hydrogen, nuclear, etc.

My understanding is that formation, while possibly rich in deposits/supply, is hard to take advantage of because extraction methods for that kind of formation are not very good and costly.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

I saw a station today at $4.05 for regular. Actually made me sick to my stomach.

But, that station historically has always had higher prices by 10 cents or more. Makes me wonder why they are still in business. Are people just that stupid, or lazy, that they can't drive a couple more blocks to the reasonably prices stations?

 

[Rickster71]

As far as gas prices go, the U.S. simply isn't friends with the right countries.
Below is a list of recent (per gallon) gas prices.
When I say recent prices; friends of ours just came back from a vacation in Egypt, and verified the price there.

Saudi Arabia $0.91
Kuwait $0.78
Egypt $0.65
Nigeria $0.38
Venezuela $0.12

 

[MUDSHARK]

Hybrid question: What is the cost to replace the batteries and how long do they last? Some say $800 some have mentioned $6000. Anyne know what an Escape would cost to replace batteries for instance?

 

[Tomorrow]

Hybrid question: What is the cost to replace the batteries and how long do they last? Some say $800 some have mentioned $6000. Anyne know what an Escape would cost to replace batteries for instance?

I've seen quotes vary all over the place...they'll be really expensive...more likely in the neighborhood of the $6K you mentioned. But they're also designed to last the car's lifetime. Do you own an Escape and are you having trouble...or is this just a "what if" worry?

 

[MUDSHARK]

No, I don't own one but am considering buying one. The wife's 2002 Montana will be traded in during the next couple of months and 30+ MPG in a Hybrid Escape is appealing ( I have had such great luck with my 95 Explorer (155k and virtually no problems other than expected wear in ball joints) that I may go the Escape route or maybe a Vue.

 

[mouettus]

I never got the point of buying an hybrid SUV. Why not just buy a smaller car instead? Or even two for the price!! If you have the money then just make 'em fully loaded in leather!

 

[MUDSHARK]

My wife often transports other handicapped children to special olympics. The smaller SUV's are harder on the handicapped kids such as our youngest and the cargo area in the back is good for coolers.

 

[mouettus]

My wife often transports other handicapped children to special olympics. The smaller SUV's are harder on the handicapped kids such as our youngest and the cargo area in the back is good for coolers.

Mazda5 hehe

 

[Rickster71]

Hybrid question: What is the cost to replace the batteries and how long do they last? Some say $800 some have mentioned $6000. Anyne know what an Escape would cost to replace batteries for instance?

Here is part of an email I sent to friends of mine that were also considering a Hybrid:

Hybrids cost anywhere from $2,000 to $5,000 more than their non-Hybrid versions.

2. The issue with the batteries, isn't that they go bad prematurely; it's the cost, when you do replace them. Each battery pack costs about $5,000 to $8,000, which is dependent on the model of the car.

3. Hybrid cars tend to accelerate at a slower speed when compared to normal vehicles. It is because of this point that many drivers tend to feel unsafe in a hybrid car, as with this, they cannot keep pace with the normal cars.
To facilitate increased speeds, hybrid cars are usually smaller than normal cars, and are usually manufactured using lightweight body materials. Though this facilitates the need for increased acceleration, this also makes the hybrid car more vulnerable in an accident. So, when compared to larger, steel reinforced cars, hybrid cars are most likely to get damaged if, and when, involved in an accident.
Also, there is a risk of exposure to high voltage wires, in an accident. Arcing wires and spilled fuel would also be a problem.

4. Even the Hybrids that are based on existing cars, like a Toyota Camry or Nissan Altima.
The Hybrid versions are heavier than the non-Hybrid. A heavier vehicle has longer stopping distances, and uses more fuel to accelerate. Hybrids are more complex, and more expensive to repair.

5. As we talked about last night; Hybrids are a new technology, with an unproven track record. They just need time for the non-obvious bugs to show up; and for those, to be worked out.


6. Ultimately, you end up with greater expense, more risk. All with gas mileage figures that aren't as good as expected.

 

[mouettus]

6. Ultimately, you end up with greater expense, more risk. All with gas mileage figures that aren't as good as expected.

I hear ya but it is no excuse to go and buy a HEMI!

 

[emorphien]

Here is part of an email I sent to friends of mine that were also considering a Hybrid:

Hybrids cost anywhere from $2,000 to $5,000 more than their non-Hybrid versions.

Often true.

2. The issue with the batteries, isn't that they go bad prematurely; it's the cost, when you do replace them. Each battery pack costs about $5,000 to $8,000, which is dependent on the model of the car.

Not sure what all manufacturers are doing but I believe Toyota offers an 8 year warranty on the batteries.

3. Hybrid cars tend to accelerate at a slower speed when compared to normal vehicles. It is because of this point that many drivers tend to feel unsafe in a hybrid car, as with this, they cannot keep pace with the normal cars.
To facilitate increased speeds, hybrid cars are usually smaller than normal cars, and are usually manufactured using lightweight body materials. Though this facilitates the need for increased acceleration, this also makes the hybrid car more vulnerable in an accident. So, when compared to larger, steel reinforced cars, hybrid cars are most likely to get damaged if, and when, involved in an accident.
Also, there is a risk of exposure to high voltage wires, in an accident. Arcing wires and spilled fuel would also be a problem.

I doubt they're any more dangerous than your average car they're compared to. Performance and safety ratings for them are comparable to standard gasoline models. Additionally, a lightweight design isn't necessarily less safe, ultimately it comes down to how the car is designed and what materials are used where and how.

Also, as far as I recall the power systems are heavily safeguarded and you still have potential for problems stemming from spilled fuel in any regular gasoline car anyway.

4. Even the Hybrids that are based on existing cars, like a Toyota Camry or Nissan Altima.
The Hybrid versions are heavier than the non-Hybrid. A heavier vehicle has longer stopping distances, and uses more fuel to accelerate. Hybrids are more complex, and more expensive to repair.

No idea about braking. Many of the hybrid systems seem to use smaller, lighter engines because they don't need the larger engines. They could also go with smaller fuel tanks if need be. I haven't kept up with all the changes in the models out there, so I don't know what the weight penalty is.

5. As we talked about last night; Hybrids are a new technology, with an unproven track record. They just need time for the non-obvious bugs to show up; and for those, to be worked out.

A number of hybrid systems have been out for a while now. Since 2000 or so there have been a variety of vehicles. I'd say for the most part they're proving to be pretty reliable.

6. Ultimately, you end up with greater expense, more risk. All with gas mileage figures that aren't as good as expected.

The gas mileage figures I agree on. I don't think an electric-gas hybrid is the answer. Diesel can do just as well or better, but it does depend on usage. Around town, some of the hybrids may not rely on the gas engine at all. A Prius, driven around town without sustained cruising probably won't need to use the gas engine much at all. In those cases their mileage can be quite good (and hence their >50mpg city rating).

Still, it's a stepping stone perhaps, but not the answer. I certainly don't agree with all your warnings, I think some of them are paranoid and over-cautious.

 

[Rickster71]

Here is an article that I hope, will shed some light on the Hybrid, Rick

The Truth About Hybrids
By Bob Elton


Bob Elton is an automotive engineer who, over the last 30 years, has worked for all of the big 3 and a number of suppliers as well. Elton holds a couple of dozen patents, and currently works as a consultant to a major automotive supplier. In addition to an engineering background, he has a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree and has worked inside styling studios at Ford, GM and Navistar. Elton has been an occasional contributor to Old Cars Weekly and has contributed regularly to numerous car club publications.
Email: bobelton@thetruthaboutcars.com




Hybrids like the new Ford Escape are making quite a splash, both in the sales charts and the media. But do they really deserve all the love and attention?

The Toyota Prius, Honda Accord hybrid and Ford Escape hybrid are a major hit. The buff books rave about them, the Greens bless them and retail customers can't get enough (literally). While the mileage, environmental and PC advantages of vehicles powered by a gas - electric powerplant seems obvious, how much of this hybrid mania is hype?

Buyers pay a large premium for a hybrid Escape or a Prius, presuming that the increased fuel mileage makes them a better environmental citizen. While there's no question that the Toyota, Honda and Ford hybrids are more fuel efficient than their conventionally powered equivalents, the difference is nowhere near as great as the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) numbers suggest.



The Prius' Synergy Drive looks clean and tidy now, but those big old batteries will eventually pose an environmental risk

Because of the low speeds involved, the city portion of the EPA's test is accomplished in battery-only mode. As the gasoline engine is off-line for a significant part of the test, the eventual mileage figure is grossly inflated. The test fails to consider the fuel needed to recharge the batteries later on. What's more, all energy-draining, electrically-powered accessories (including AC) are switched off during both the urban and highway tests. These variables contribute to the huge discrepancy between the EPA's official numbers and hybrid owners real world experience.

Few people realize that a hybrid's power train adds roughly 10% to the weight of a car. Even fewer realize that manufacturers try to offset the weight penalty-- and add to the hybrid's headline-grabbing mileage figures-- by the extensive use of non-hybrid gas-saving technology. Engine shut-off at idle, electric power steering, harder and reduced rolling resistance tires (at the expense of comfort and traction), reduced option content, reduced engine performance, and, in the case of the Ford, a continuously variable transmission (CVT) all help raise the cars overall efficiency.



The hybrid powertrain adds roughly 10% to the car's weight

Of course, if gas mileage is the ultimate goal, all of these strategies could be applied to a 'standard' car. A non-hybrid model with the equivalent modifications would significantly narrow the mileage gap with its hybrid sibling. In fact, in normal use, the margin between truly comparable hybrid and non-hybrid cars could be less than 10%-- hardly enough to justify the extra purchase price. And, lest we forget, the hybrid's gas-saving advantage is not without its own particular environmental costs.

Gas - electric hybrid engines use several large batteries. Creating these power cells requires a couple of hundred pounds of heavy metals-- not to mention the copper used in the large electric drive motors and the heavy wires they require. Mining and smelting lead, copper and other heavy metals is an energy intensive process that generates both air pollution and deforestation. Disposing of the batteries when they outlive their usefulness also raises environmental challenges.



A seldom discussed alternative to hybrid-powered vehicles: walking

And then there are the safety problems related to the gas - electric hybrid engine's high voltages and amperages. While Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) regulate a passenger vehicle's basic crash protection, there are no federally mandated procedures remain for the protection of rescue workers at the site of an accident involving a hybrid-powered vehicle. Service technicians and do-it-yourself owners also lack the guidelines, education and training necessary to safely repair hybrid engines.

So, if the hybrid's mileage advantage is minimal, and the technology has its own set of negative environmental side effects, why is hybrid technology so popular, both in the marketplace and in the glossy pages of the car mags?



The 1923 Stanley Steamer. Will hybrids also become a historical oddity?

Americans are fond of turning to simple silver bullets to solve complicated problems. The hybrid solution seems ideal. Want to be environmentally responsible? Buy a hybrid. A hybrid car offers instant gratification, PC-style. It relieves consumers of both guilt and personal responsibility for the broader impact of their daily energy consumption habits. Heaven forbid that a hybrid owner should switch off their central air, or buy less disposable products, or use their car less, to help protect the environment.

Hybrid technology embodies America's "solution of the day" syndrome. A quarter of a century ago, the diesel-powered car was going to free us from dependence on imported oil. A while later, the turbocharger was set to improve the efficiency of the internal combustion engine and liberate us from foreign oil addiction. About a decade ago, the California Air Resources Board thought that battery-powered electric cars were the answer, cleaning the air as they saved the world's petrochemical resources.

The problem with the "solution of the day" is that few of these 'easy' solutions actually work. Automotive history is littered with failed miracles, from the kerosene-driven Stanley Steamer to the rotary-powered Skycar. Time has proven that the only innovations that persevere in the marketplace are the ones that deliver real benefits. No amount of hype can obscure, for long, the lack of results. When boosters call hybrid technology an 'interim' solution to our energy needs, they're more right than they even know.




Bob Elton

 

[emorphien]

There is no doubt hybrid technology is better perceived than it really is. I still think your email is more alarmist than necessary.

 

[MUDSHARK]

So what's the verdict here? City dude yes all others no? Green smeen do I recover the cost at 20k miles a year within 4 years?

 

[jinjuku]

I have a question about the different grades of gas:

When gas wast $1.30 for regular, and $1.40 for the next grade up, why is it now gas is $3.90 for regular and $4.00 for the next grade up. Why is it still only a $0.10 differential?

 

[MUDSHARK]

Since the gas comes from the same barrel of oil I would think that the extra refining costs have not increased or what increases have been incurred are not yet being passed on to the reseller. Of course, one could take a cynic approach and say that all those cost increases for premium have been put into the regular gas cost.

 

[Rickster71]

I still think your email is more alarmist than necessary.

My posts aren't 'alarmist' at all. I'm simply pointing out that there are two side to any discussion.
It's a fact that, hybrids are a new technology, with an unproven track record.
They just need time for the non-obvious bugs to show up; and for those, to be worked out.

Early adopters of anything, tend to be guinea pigs, that's just a simple fact of life.

I've been involved in the rebuilding and restoration of engines, and classic cars (as a hobby) for more years than I'd care to admit.
One thing I do know is, when political, and social agendas force automakers to provide a quick fix, the resulting product is inferior.
It's always the consumer that pays the price of being a guinea pig.

Also, I was a firefighter for over fifteen years, and have seen the real life problems that volatile gas tanks present.
I can imagine the added problems that a high voltage cable, and fuel would present to first responders, and accident victims.
High voltage hybrids use 144 to 300 Volt traction batteries. These voltages can run up to 700 Volts at the inverter with the vehicle running.

 

[Halon451]

Since the gas comes from the same barrel of oil I would think that the extra refining costs have not increased or what increases have been incurred are not yet being passed on to the reseller. Of course, one could take a cynic approach and say that all those cost increases for premium have been put into the regular gas cost.

I'd second that.

 

[yettitheman]

Yep... hybrids are a no for me.

Even if the batteries DO last a while... they are still expensive to replace and where do they do when they die? Typically, in the ground.

Take all the hybrid owners (I'll guess around 2-3% of the US population has one) and multiply that by the batteries in the cars. Lot's of big batteries going in the dirt if you ask me in a few years if hybrids take off (I doubt it)

Instead of a Prius... how about the Echo?
It's only 13k there abouts, and you can use the money you save for gas.

Not to mention, it's only about 7mpg (supposedly) less than the Prius.


(I am yettitheman, not a Toyota endorser. If you feel that I should recommend a car, it will be German made; BMW, VW, Audi, Porsche and the likes. All others will be suspect to my mutiny.)