FV15HP Clipping

[herbu]

Watched the movie "Serenity" yesterday. Noticed some "clicks" during particularly loud explosions. (BTW, if you're a LFE & bass fan, you should try this movie!) I finally figured out it was the Rythmik FV15HP clipping. Turned on the "limiter", and the clicks went away.

I was a bit surprised because the volume on the sub was set at about 10:00, and AVR sub volume was at 0dB. Output was high, the room was shaking, but I wouldn't have thought clipping would be an issue at these relatively low settings for a beast like the FV15HP.

I suppose it is just an example of the massive bass in some movies, not a reflection on the FV15HP. Right?

 

[afterlife2]

I have my PB1000 at 2 o'clock and receiver at 10db and sometimes I do 9db for some movies/TV. I'm in a small @ss room , so it sounds rockin' good to me. Like they say every room setup is different. Glad you found the culprit.

 

[Steve81]

I was a bit surprised because the volume on the sub was set at about 10:00, and AVR sub volume was at 0dB. Output was high, the room was shaking, but I wouldn't have thought clipping would be an issue at these relatively low settings for a beast like the FV15HP.

Unfortunately the subwoofer's gain & AVR's trim settings don't really tell us much about the load being placed on a subwoofer. More to the point, assuming everything is calibrated properly, you can't expect to play at 10dB over reference just because the gain knob / trim settings seem to be set low. While the FV15HP is a very capable subwoofer, it does have limits.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wow. I don't recall ever hearing my subs making "clicking" sounds.

So turning on the limiter completely eliminated the clicking sounds.

I don't use any kind of limiters in my system. My 2 Funk 18.0 and 5 RBH SX-1010N subs are powered by ATI amps (AT3002 for Funk, AT2004 for RBH). No limiters. I have never heard clicking sounds even when my room is shaking like an earthquake.

I do have that Serenity BD. I will check it out again today.

 

[3db]

Unfortunately the subwoofer's gain & AVR's trim settings don't really tell us much about the load being placed on a subwoofer. More to the point, assuming everything is calibrated properly, you can't expect to play at 10dB over reference just because the gain knob / trim settings seem to be set low. While the FV15HP is a very capable subwoofer, it does have limits.

I would also like to add the following from real time experiences. Its all about sub location in the room with respect to the listening position. When I got my first sub, ( PSB Subsonic 5) I noticed a lot of port chuffing and loud volumes of bass. I had the gain turned way up on the sub to achieve feeling the room shake. I then learned about the bass crawl, standing waves, in room nulls and peaks so I did a bass crawl. I put the sub in the listening position and crawled around the room until I heard solid deep bass. I placed the sub in that location and had to turn down the sub's gain as it was really over powering. The port chuff had disappeared completely and I still achieved the same feelling and bass impact with much less drive.

Fast forward to last November where I finally replaced by PSB with a Rythmik LV12-R . After a week of experimentation, I finally found a sweet spot for it and much too my surprise was at a totally different location where the old sub used to sit. Moral of the long winded story is sub location is key. Experiment with location and use room gain to your advantage.

 

[crossedover]

Wow. I don't recall ever hearing my subs making "clicking" sounds.

So turning on the limiter completely eliminated the clicking sounds.

I don't use any kind of limiters in my system. My 2 Funk 18.0 and 5 RBH SX-1010N subs are powered by ATI amps (AT3002 for Funk, AT2004 for RBH). No limiters. I have never heard clicking sounds even when my room is shaking like an earthquake.

I do have that Serenity BD. I will check it out again today.

Those poor funk's are under powered that's why they are not clipping. Gotta love the ati build quality, you may be the only one powering subs with them. Most people only wish they had your problems

 

[3db]

Wow. I don't recall ever hearing my subs making "clicking" sounds.

So turning on the limiter completely eliminated the clicking sounds.

I don't use any kind of limiters in my system. My 2 Funk 18.0 and 5 RBH SX-1010N subs are powered by ATI amps (AT3002 for Funk, AT2004 for RBH). No limiters. I have never heard clicking sounds even when my room is shaking like an earthquake.

I do have that Serenity BD. I will check it out again today.

This reads to me more of over driving the sub because of poor room location to me. I'm betting that if the OP experiments with location that we will get the bass he wants and then some without having to resort to overdriving the sub. I watched Serenity along time ago with my little PSB Subsonic 5 and it rattled the bassment sliders without chuffing and its capabilities absolutely pale in comparison to the FV15HP.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Those poor funk's are under powered that's why they are not clipping. Gotta love the ati build quality, you may be the only one powering subs with them. Most people only wish they had your problems

I love to use this ammunition over on the AVS B&W forum where most of those guys think pro amps sound like crap. So I tell them that using separate high quality amps for the subs make a huge difference since all their $3-4K subs use pro plate amps and should sound like crap also.

Well, it's a fair attack. If they think pro amps sound like crap for speakers, then pro amps should sound like crap for subs too. No double standards here.

Oh, yeah, they sure love that.

Of course, I don't really believe that. But it's a good joke on them since they truly believe that pro amps sound like crap.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This reads to me more of over driving the sub because of poor room location to me. I'm betting that if the OP experiments with location that we will get the bass he wants and then some without having to resort to overdriving the sub. I watched Serenity along time ago with my little PSB Subsonic 5 and it rattled the bassment sliders without chuffing and its capabilities absolutely pale in comparison to the FV15HP.

You may be right. I had dual Rythmik subs and they never made clicking noises either.

I suppose herbu could try different sub locations to see if that increases output with decreased volume and eliminates the clicking noises.

But herbu said the Sub volume level is only 10:00, not even 50% volume, and the AVR channel level is 0.0. That doesn't seem like a lot of volume. When I had my Rythmik subs, I set the Sub volume at 12:00 (50%) and the AVR trim level was probably 0.0.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Speaking of earthquakes, I have a funny story.

A few weeks ago we had a 4.1 earthquake. When I came into work the next day, people were talking about it. But since my room and chair are always shaking anyway when I watch movies, I didn't even noticed.

Oh, yeah, my subs shake my lounge chair that I lie on. It sounds pretty frightening at times.

 

[3db]

Watched the movie "Serenity" yesterday. Noticed some "clicks" during particularly loud explosions. (BTW, if you're a LFE & bass fan, you should try this movie!) I finally figured out it was the Rythmik FV15HP clipping. Turned on the "limiter", and the clicks went away.

I was a bit surprised because the volume on the sub was set at about 10:00, and AVR sub volume was at 0dB. Output was high, the room was shaking, but I wouldn't have thought clipping would be an issue at these relatively low settings for a beast like the FV15HP.

I suppose it is just an example of the massive bass in some movies, not a reflection on the FV15HP. Right?

Please read my response to Steve's post. I've offered additional some information that may help you eliminate this. Also, if the bass soundtrack is really hot, its equivalent to over driving the sub regardless of who makes the sub.

 

[3db]

You may be right. I had dual Rythmik subs and they never made clicking noises either.

I suppose herbu could try different sub locations to see if that increases output with decreased volume and eliminates the clicking noises.

But herbu said the Sub volume level is only 10:00, not even 50% volume, and the AVR channel level is 0.0. That doesn't seem like a lot of volume. When I had my Rythmik subs, I set the Sub volume at 12:00 (50%) and the AVR trim level was probably 0.0.

True enough but if the sound track is really hot, it will be equivalent to overdriving the sub. Either the AVR is sending a clipped signal to the sub or the sub's amp is clipping the signal. Either way, an overly hot soundtrack does not reflect the quality of his sub.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

True enough but if the sound track is really hot, it will be equivalent to overdriving the sub. Either the AVR is sending a clipped signal to the sub or the sub's amp is clipping the signal. Either way, an overly hot soundtrack does not reflect the quality of his sub.

True. Hot bass soundtrack can be frightening. Hmm. Now I really want to watch Serenity BD (DTS-HD MA) again.

 

[3db]

True. Hot bass soundtrack can be frightening. Hmm. Now I really want to watch Serenity BD again.

Yeah me too with the bigger sub.

 

[herbu]

I suppose herbu could try different sub locations to see if that increases output with decreased volume and eliminates the clicking noises.

But herbu said the Sub volume level is only 10:00, not even 50% volume, and the AVR channel level is 0.0. That doesn't seem like a lot of volume. When I had my Rythmik subs, I set the Sub volume at 12:00 (50%) and the AVR trim level was probably 0.0.

Thanks for all the input, guys. I'm kind of limited to sub location, HOWEVER, I do have 2 usable spots... one in front and one in back of the room. Have tried them both, and each clearly presents different peak & null spots. The good news is a new PB13U will be here Monday. FV15HP in front, PB13U in back. Think that will help.

I did call Rythmik about the clicks. The guy immediately said "turn on the limiter". Didn't even ask me if it was already on. He said gain and volume settings can be overwhelmed with the soundtrack of some movies. Their manual recommends turning it on for HT, off for music. I didn't think it was necessary w/ the relatively low settings. Guess I was wrong... again.

 

[slipperybidness]

Thanks for all the input, guys. I'm kind of limited to sub location, HOWEVER, I do have 2 usable spots... one in front and one in back of the room. Have tried them both, and each clearly presents different peak & null spots. The good news is a new PB13U will be here Monday. FV15HP in front, PB13U in back. Think that will help.

I did call Rythmik about the clicks. The guy immediately said "turn on the limiter". Didn't even ask me if it was already on. He said gain and volume settings can be overwhelmed with the soundtrack of some movies. Their manual recommends turning it on for HT, off for music. I didn't think it was necessary w/ the relatively low settings. Guess I was wrong... again.

The thing is that a well-designed limiter will not degrade the sound quality. I have every reason to believe that the Rythmiks have well designed limiters, so the safe thing to do is leave it on.

I have the F15HP, but I really can't remember if I have the limiter on or not, but I have never over-driven that sub either.

 

[herbu]

The thing is that a well-designed limiter will not degrade the sound quality. I have every reason to believe that the Rythmiks have well designed limiters, so the safe thing to do is leave it on.

I have the F15HP, but I really can't remember if I have the limiter on or not, but I have never over-driven that sub either.

After I turned it on, I experimented w/ "Serenity" and couldn't tell any difference, except the clicks went away. Floor, windows and chairs still shook. Played w/ some music and also couldn't tell any difference. Like you said, I will leave it on. I'm hoping the addition of a PB13U will put me back in the sweet spot of having more sub capability than I will use. I'm thinking if my equipment has to be "limited" to prevent damage, I'm running too close to the maximum capability... and that's not a good idea.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I did call Rythmik about the clicks. The guy immediately said "turn on the limiter". Didn't even ask me if it was already on. He said gain and volume settings can be overwhelmed with the soundtrack of some movies. Their manual recommends turning it on for HT, off for music. I didn't think it was necessary w/ the relatively low settings. Guess I was wrong... again.

Oh, wait, now that I think about it, when I had dual Rythmik subs, I always kept the Limiter On 100% of the time for everything just to be safe. I figured it was there for a reason.

But the clipping is due to the internal amp, right?

If the sub had a beefier amp, would clipping occur? I wouldn't think so. That is why people want a lot of headroom power. Right?

I am thinking that in the case of subwoofer-demanding bass, amps are not created equal and watts do not equate the same.

 

[herbu]

I am thinking that in the case of subwoofer-demanding bass, amps are not created equal and watts do not equate the same.

Hmmm... sounds like a case for passive subs and separate amps.

 

[TLS Guy]

Oh, wait, now that I think about it, when I had dual Rythmik subs, I always kept the Limiter On 100% of the time for everything just to be safe. I figured it was there for a reason.

But the clipping is due to the internal amp, right?

If the sub had a beefier amp, would clipping occur? I wouldn't think so. That is why people want a lot of headroom power. Right?

I am thinking that in the case of subwoofer-demanding bass, amps are not created equal and watts do not equate the same.

I don't think it is the amp making the click, but the driver exceeding xmax.

If you look at the measurements, that sub is operating close to the wind. For that reason, the AH reviewer did the measurements with the limiter on.

The review shows notching by the limiter at points where you would expect high cone excursion. I suspect the need for the limiter is due to this servo Eq system. Rhythmic are not very forthcoming about the real details. I have not tried to find the patents yet.

In general any type of bass Eq to a ported box is problematic.

I suspect the idea, is to use a Qb3 box rather then Qb4. This gives you a smaller box but a higher F3 and of course lower efficiency. Then the bass is extended by this Eq servo system I suspect. I could be wrong about this, as I said details from Rythmic are scant. In any event I suspect one of many schemes to try and get the proverbial Quart out of a pint pot.

If you want really good effortless natural bass, it really does require a huge enclosure, and I mean huge compared to what most people would tolerate. However, if you have long conditioned the WAF, I can assure you there is nothing like it!