Full range speakers for small room 12x9

[ski2xblack]

Doc, most folks don't have gargantuan mains sporting six voice coils to distribute all that energy to. They'll likely have one, maybe two mid/woof voice coils per channel. In such cases, running them full range is a recipe for increased IM distortion, where running them with proper bass management and subs substantially reduces IM and slightly increases dynamic range. Also, it's quite possible to achieve good response in the time domain with subs, so posing that as some sort of insurmountable hurdle is just incorrect.

 

[KEW]

You might also consider the SVS Ultra towers. Their spec is 28Hz (+/-3dB). but I believe room gain would get them down to 20Hz or very close.
I don't know if @Pogre measured his in room (w/o Subs), but he may be able to give you a data point for his room. Generally, the smaller the room, the more room Gain.
https://www.svsound.com/products/ultra-tower?variant=9532245379&gclid=Cj0KCQjwktHLBRDsARIsAFBSb6yDnyEdyYBDCnbncPC1hUI0XTWuOG6V7GVUXZAPSCV2HDAkEMfVrGsaAhFbEALw_wcB

However, TheWarrior did make a very good point about a separate sub allowing use of a miniDSP to help control your in-room bass.

 

[Pogre]

You might also consider the SVS Ultra towers. Their spec is 28Hz (+/-3dB). but I believe room gain would get them down to 20Hz or very close.
I don't know if @Pogre measured his in room (w/o Subs), but he may be able to give you a data point for his room. Generally, the smaller the room, the more room Gain.
https://www.svsound.com/products/ultra-tower?variant=9532245379&gclid=Cj0KCQjwktHLBRDsARIsAFBSb6yDnyEdyYBDCnbncPC1hUI0XTWuOG6V7GVUXZAPSCV2HDAkEMfVrGsaAhFbEALw_wcB

However, TheWarrior did make a very good point about a separate sub allowing use of a miniDSP to help control your in-room bass.

I got up early this morning and I have some time. I'll do a few sweeps and post them up.

 

[KEW]

I got up early this morning and I have some time. I'll do a few sweeps and post them up.

Great! This is something I wonder about quite a bit. We always are looking for flat response down to 20Hz in an anechoic chamber, but then we listen in rooms that are almost certain to increase bass frequencies. Anechoic makes sense for higher frequencies because we are primarily interested in the direct response, but with bass frequencies it is the net sum that matters (due to our not localizing/hearing these frequencies so acutely?).
Anechoic still provides a repeatable standard, but I have found that anechoicly flat down to 20Hz does not sound good in room. Thus it is good to have subs that have tuning options (or add miniDSP).

 

[Pogre]

Great! This is something I wonder about quite a bit. We always are looking for flat response down to 20Hz in an anechoic chamber, but then we listen in rooms that are almost certain to increase bass frequencies. Anechoic makes sense for higher frequencies because we are primarily interested in the direct response, but with bass frequencies it is the net sum that matters (due to our not localizing/hearing these frequencies so acutely?).
Anechoic still provides a repeatable standard, but I have found that anechoicly flat down to 20Hz does not sound good in room. Thus it is good to have subs that have tuning options (or add miniDSP).

My hvac was running so my noise floor was only down to about 50db, but I think it was quiet enough to get us in the ballpark.

That's an averaged response of 6 different measurements taken in and around my seat. Looks pretty good to me as far as extension into the 20's. I did have dynamic eq on for the sweeps, so that's probably why there's a boost in the bass frequencies

I did an Audyssey calibration just for my mains by themselves before I did the sweeps.

 

[KEW]

My hvac was running so my noise floor was only down to about 50db, but I think it was quiet enough to get us in the ballpark.

View attachment 21717


That's an averaged response of 6 different measurements taken in and around my seat. Looks pretty good to me as far as extension into the 20's. I did have dynamic eq on for the sweeps, so that's probably why there's a boost in the bass frequencies

I did an Audyssey calibration just for my mains by themselves before I did the sweeps.

Nice! I would say those qualify as full range speakers in your room (which IIRC is substantially larger than Andrein's 12X9).

PS - Just to make sure anyone looking at this knows, the nulls at ~40 & 70Hz are room effects (as are many lesser nodes & nulls), the speakers are not the cause of this. I guess that is another reason why anechoic measurements are useful for the bass region!

 

[Pogre]

Nice! I would say those qualify as full range speakers in your room (which IIRC is substantially larger than Andrein's 12X9).

Yes, I have a very large room. ~5900 ^3.

 

[Pogre]

Nice! I would say those qualify as full range speakers in your room (which IIRC is substantially larger than Andrein's 12X9).

PS - Just to make sure anyone looking at this knows, the nulls at ~40 & 70Hz are room effects (as are many lesser nodes & nulls), the speakers are not the cause of this. I guess that is another reason why anechoic measurements are useful for the bass region!

I'll add also that those nulls disappear when my subs are on. The subs themselves mess up the tower's response. They're too close to the mains and each tower is firing an 8" right into the side of a woofer cabinet. If I pulled the subs out of there they'd probably measure even flatter.

There's only 6" between the sub and that driver on either side. Not ideal, but I have subs.

That's my bass response with the subs on.

 

[Andrein]

I'll add also that those nulls disappear when my subs are on. The subs themselves mess up the tower's response. They're too close to the mains and each tower is firing an 8" right into the side of a woofer cabinet. If I pulled the subs out of there they'd probably measure even flatter.
View attachment 21722

There's only 6" between the sub and that driver on either side. Not ideal, but I have subs.

View attachment 21725

That's my bass response with the subs on.

Sorry, would you be able to repeat test for towers only with the same level as the last measurment? To compare results

 

[Andrein]

Great! This is something I wonder about quite a bit. We always are looking for flat response down to 20Hz in an anechoic chamber, but then we listen in rooms that are almost certain to increase bass frequencies. Anechoic makes sense for higher frequencies because we are primarily interested in the direct response, but with bass frequencies it is the net sum that matters (due to our not localizing/hearing these frequencies so acutely?).
Anechoic still provides a repeatable standard, but I have found that anechoicly flat down to 20Hz does not sound good in room. Thus it is good to have subs that have tuning options (or add miniDSP).

I have nano mini dsp. Decided to not use it in my main room but might be usefull in this case.

 

[Pogre]

Sorry, would you be able to repeat test for towers only with the same level as the last measurment? To compare results

That first sweep is for the towers only. I was explaining the nulls at 40 and 70hz in the 2nd post.

 

[Andrein]

Right. Sorry. Low end looks quite impressive. I think it is worth to give towers only a try. Especially in that small room. Will look at the models available in uk first though before looking at ultras. As for KEFs i listened to them in showroom along side ProAc 148. Ended up buying proacs for my main room. Maybe i will try some day to take proacs to that small room in Wales when i drive alone.

 

[KEW]

Right. Sorry. Low end looks quite impressive. I think it is worth to give towers only a try. Especially in that small room. Will look at the models available in uk first though before looking at ultras. As for KEFs i listened to them in showroom along side ProAc 148. Ended up buying proacs for my main room. Maybe i will try some day to take proacs to that small room in Wales when i drive alone.

How low do the Proacs go?
Do they publish a -3dB frequency?

 

[Andrein]

They say 25hz. But no +-.

 

[zieglj01]

They say 25hz. But no +-.

With your size room -- you should be able to find speakers that will meet your needs. You are thinking too much about published specs. With your room, you will receive some gain -- It is more about the actual in room performance than the perception of the mind (thoughts). Go and audition and enjoy the search adventure.

 

[Andrein]

With your size room -- you should be able to find speakers that will meet your needs. You are thinking too much about published specs. With your room, you will receive some gain -- It is more about the actual in room performance than the perception of the mind (thoughts). Go and audition and enjoy the search adventure.

Yeah, I know. Just building some knowledge so that I don't need to send speakers back again and again. Getting used to this exercised this year. 3 amp returns, 1avr return... Ideally would like just buy and enjoy

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It seems to me you are looking for towers under $2,500 that will come close to a small subwoofer-performance, but you don't want a separate subwoofer. DefTech and GoldenEar are 2 options.

2 other options would be the RBH SV-6500 tower and NHT Classic Four tower, both would require a separate subwoofer amp.

 

[Andrein]

It seems to me you are looking for towers under $2,500 that will come close to a small subwoofer-performance, but you don't want a separate subwoofer. DefTech and GoldenEar are 2 options.

2 other options would be the RBH SV-6500 tower and NHT Classic Four tower, both would require a separate subwoofer amp.

Yes i was thinking about something like that Are those freq response numbers realistic for DefTech and Goldenear towers?

 

[shadyJ]

Yes i was thinking about something like that Are those freq response numbers realistic for DefTech and Goldenear towers?

Deftech and GoldenEar both exaggerate their low end numbers badly. If I were looking at a tower with real low end, I might be looking at an SVS Ultra tower.

 

[Pogre]

Deftech and GoldenEar both exaggerate their low end numbers badly. If I were looking at a tower with real low end, I might be looking at an SVS Ultra tower.

I actually plug the ports on mine when I mix them with my subs.

Yeah, you can see from my measurement above they hit pretty deep and my room is pretty large so there isn't as much in the way of room gain like op will probably enjoy.