Free Health Care!

[Tomorrow]

The vast majority of which have social welfare states and none that I know of have the current problems that America does.

Do you really need to spend that amount of money on your armed forces? Really?

And the space program; I actually like the spending of money on research, pure and applied. It's a good thing but how efficient is that space program of yours? How much money is wasted unnecessarily?

This is not about one country being "better" than another so keep your hurt patriotic pride in your pocket. This is about rationally and objectively looking at alternative systems.

You say this isn't about willy waving or one country being better than another? You are completely full of yourself, sir. Your first post went off on a rant about going to France, with the world's best healthcare, to take care of someone's imaginary Crohn's Disease. Then you tell of us all the wonderful things done in Europe that the U.S. sucks at and needs to fix.

For you it has exactly been about willy waving. Your parochial attitudes smack of pretty typical European arrogance that isn't well tolerated here or anywhere.

Both continents have their burdens and both have their excellence. Too bad you can't recognize it.

 

[AdrianMills]

Yeah, it's easy taking care of yourself when you don't have to worry about anyone else, isn't it? How many illegal immigrants do you have to worry about?

I am waiting for Norway, or any european country for that matter, to undertake any humanitarian missions outside their borders. Hell, you couldn't even handle Serbia without crying for our intervention. I'm fairly sure that almost any suffering country in sub-saharian Africa would benefit from whatever aid you and your neighboring countries can offer.

Oh, I wonder if we can bill you retroactively for all the NATO troops that kept your collective sardines out of a can for the last 60 years?

Actually Western Europe has quite a few illegal immigrants; go on, really think about where they’d be coming from. Western Europe, Norway included has quite a large quota of legal immigration too.

You seem to be unaware that there are many humanitarian and peace keeping missions undertaken by most if not all European countries. Or maybe you don't?

You may want to read this before you start criticizing foreign aid practices; http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/charity.html

 

[Rickster71]

Perhaps people in MA are sick of helping subsidized people in the south? Why should people in MA have to pay to help FL residents with Federal money after a hurricane when they irresponsibly bought in the hurricane capital?

So, you're comparing an act of God, (a hurricane) with a person choosing to smoke, and eat French fries? Oh brother.

 

[stratman]

Here's what and how the Brits paid us back according to the BBC:

What's a little debt between friends?
By Finlo Rohrer
BBC News Magazine



The UK is about to pay off the last of its World War II loans from the US. But it hasn't always been so fastidious.

On 31 December, the UK will make a payment of about $83m (£45.5m) to the US and so discharge the last of its loans from World War II from its transatlantic ally.

It is hard from a modern viewpoint to appreciate the astronomical costs and economic damage caused by this conflict. In 1945, Britain badly needed money to pay for reconstruction and also to import food for a nation worn down after years of rationing.

"In a nutshell, everything we got from America in World War II was free," says economic historian Professor Mark Harrison, of Warwick University.

"The loan was really to help Britain through the consequences of post-war adjustment, rather than the war itself. This position was different from World War I, where money was lent for the war effort itself."


Britain needed to rebuild

Britain had spent a great deal of money at the beginning of the war, under the US cash-and-carry scheme, which saw straight payments for materiel. There was also trading of territory for equipment on terms that have attracted much criticism in the years since. By 1941, Britain was in a parlous financial state and Lend-Lease was eventually introduced.

The post-war loan was part-driven by the Americans' termination of the scheme. Under the programme, the US had effectively donated equipment for the war effort, but anything left over in Britain at the end of hostilities and still needed would have to be paid for.

But the price would please a bargain hunter - the US only wanted one-tenth of the production cost of the equipment and would lend the money to pay for it.

As a result, the UK took a loan for $586m (about £145m at 1945 exchange rates), and a further $3,750m line of credit (about £930m at 1945 exchange rates). The loan was to be paid off in 50 annual repayments starting in 1950, although there were six years when payment was deferred because of economic or political crises.

Generous terms

It's easy to cough and splutter at the thought of our closest ally suddenly demanding payment for equipment rather than sparing a billion or two as a gift.

But the terms of the loan were extremely generous, with a fixed interest rate of 2% making it considerably less terrifying than a typical mortgage.

Still there were British officials, like economist JM Keynes, who detected a note of churlishness in the general demeanour of the Americans after the war.

Nobody pays off their student loan early, unless they are a nutter

Dr Tim Leunig
His biographer, Lord Skidelsky, says: "Keynes wanted either a gift to cover Britain's post-war balance of payments, or an interest-free loan. The most important condition was sterling being made convertible [to dollars]. Everyone simply changed their pounds for dollars. [Loans were] eaten up by a flight from sterling. They then had to suspend convertibility. The terms were impossible to fulfil."

Anne Moffat, the MP for East Lothian, asked the parliamentary question that revealed the end of the WWII loan after being pressed by an interested constituent. She is a little surprised that we are still paying the Americans off all these years later.

"It is certainly bad that no-one seems to have known about it. It seems to be a dark, well-kept secret."

Historic debts

Yet for Dr Tim Leunig, lecturer in economic history at the LSE, it's no surprise that the UK chose to keep this low-interest loan going rather than pay it off early.

"Nobody pays off their student loan early, unless they are a nutter. Even if you've got the money to pay it off early, you should just put it in a bank and pocket the interest."

And if it seems strange to the non-economist that WWII debts are still knocking around after 60 years, there are debts that predate the Napoleonic wars. Dr Leunig says the government is still paying out on these "consol" bonds, because it is better value for taxpayers to keep paying the 2.5% interest than to buy back the bonds.

In a 1945 state department survey on the US public's attitudes to its wartime allies, Britain was one of the least trusted countries

Dr Patricia Clavin

And while the UK dutifully pays off its World War II debts, those from World War I remain resolutely unpaid. And are by no means trifling. In 1934, Britain owed the US $4.4bn of World War I debt (about £866m at 1934 exchange rates). Adjusted by the Retail Price Index, a typical measure of inflation, £866m would equate to £40bn now, and if adjusted by the growth of GDP, to about £225bn.

"We just sort of gave up around 1932 when the interwar economy was in turmoil, currencies were collapsing," says Prof Harrison.

Nor were we alone. In 1931, US President Herbert Hoover announced a one-year moratorium on war loan repayments from all nations so the international community could properly discuss what it was going to do.

British resentment

Many Britons felt that the US loans should be considered as part of its contribution to the World War I effort.

"The Americans lent Britain a lot. Britain resented making payments," says historian Dr Patricia Clavin, of Oxford University.

And although Britain was unable to pay its debts, it was also owed the whacking sum of £2.3bn.

OUTSTANDING WWI LOANS
Britain owed to US in 1934: £866m
Adjusted by RPI to 2006: £40bn
Other nations owed Britain: £2.3bn
Adjusted by RPI to 2006: £104bn

These loans remain in limbo. The UK Government's position is this: "Neither the debt owed to the United States by the UK nor the larger debts owed by other countries to the UK have been serviced since 1934, nor have they been written off."

So in a time when debt relief for Third World nations is recurrently in the news, the UK still has a slew of unresolved loans from a war that finished 88 years ago. HM Treasury's researchers descended into its archives and were unable to even establish which nations owe money. The bulk of the sum would probably have gone to allies such as nations of the Empire fighting alongside Britain, says Dr Clavin.


Nor is HM Treasury able to say why the UK never repaid its WWI debts - even though, at the time, many Americans took a dim view of repayments being suspended, for they had bought bonds which stood little chance of showing a return on their investment.


The Wall Street Crash helped plunge economies into chaos

Thus despite fighting on the same side in WWII, an air of financial distrust remained after hostilities ended.

"In a 1945 state department survey on the US public's attitudes to its wartime allies, Britain was one of the least trusted countries," says Dr Clavin.

During the crisis years of the 1930s, only one nation continued to pay in full - Finland. Perhaps a conscious effort to foster a good reputation with an increasingly influential power, Finland's actions generated thousands of positive stories in the American media at the time. Nor has it been forgotten; the Finns celebrated this achievement in an exhibition last year.

But for the UK, a reputation for reliability has taken longer to restore."

 

[Halon451]

Incredible isn't it? FWIW, I need absolutely no provocation to express a fierce PRIDE (yes, pride) in the American way of life, my country and what has been sacrificed to get us here. Adrian, I would recommend you check your resources a little more thoroughly before entering into a debate such as this, because most of your responses thus far have more or less backpedaling nonsense - you have in some instances contradicted your own statements, in other cases quoted events and historical "facts" that simply are not true. Strat beat me to the punch on correcting your little fancy recount of how exactly it was we got involved in WWII, and not a red-blooded American alive today who was around December 7th, 1941 can forget just how and why we went to war.

But anyway, I digress - the point has been made. And yes, my last reply was less than mature - just trying to reach you on your level, friend.

Hey you know what? I applaud your "worldly" experience, I really do - but it doesn't change the fact that people are swarming into this country in droves, now why do you think that is? It must be our atrocious health care system, it must be our poor economy (which will and always has recovered mind you), it must be the despicable living conditions (since of course we're not much better off than newly developing countries according to your statistics), or perhaps just our music.

So go ahead, reach around with your right hand and give yourself a good pat on the back for the "enlightenment" you have shared with us all. Oh, I take it you were a bit surprised that I am well aware of CERN, and most likely 99% more in tune with cold fusion technology than you will ever be, so I find it amusing that you are attempting to use these things to discredit our intelligence and/or lack of commitment towards R&D programs. Sheesh...

Signed,

Just another "dumb" American...

 

[stratman]

Perhaps people in MA are sick of helping subsidized people in the south? Why should people in MA have to pay to help FL residents with Federal money after a hurricane when they irresponsibly bought in the hurricane capital?

What about Tornado Alley.
Earthquake areas.
Possible volcanos.
How about New Orleans, still being rebuilt under further risk.
Areas with the possibility of massive snow storms.

Why should anyone have to pay? Because we have a federal government.

 

[Halon451]

What about Tornado Alley.
Earthquake areas.
Possible volcanos.
How about New Orleans, still being rebuilt under further risk.
Areas with the possibility of massive snow storms.

Why should anyone have to pay? Because we have a federal government.

You forgot wildfire zones and Midwest flooding.

 

[stratman]

Adrian, you still owe us money, from WW I. I want a check in the mail no later than Friday, or I'll put a lien on the Queen Mum's diamond tiara.

 

[Rickster71]

Actually Western Europe has quite a few illegal immigrants; go on, really think about where they’d be coming from. Western Europe, Norway included has quite a large quota of legal immigration too.

You have a "quite a few" illegal aliens, and with that your Population is still only: 4,737,200? So, by "quite a few" I suppose you literally meant "a few"

 

[jostenmeat]

Actually Western Europe has quite a few illegal immigrants; go on, really think about where they’d be coming from. Western Europe, Norway included has quite a large quota of legal immigration too.

Guys, I just want to say that not all Europeans are as thankless as he is. Sure, there's a lot of anti-American sentiment, perhaps a love/hate relationship, but there are still those who remember. As mark has alluded to, I've heard certain Frenchmen thank Americans for not having to speak German at this time. Of course they know we didn't do it all by ourselves. The Soviets also broke their backs.

I do think the world becomes more "global" everyday, and our cultures, well at least economies, are more and more symbiotic, I find.

However, I found some European countries, or certain areas therof, to be more xenophobic than others. The French have a certain isolationist streak in them, at least in terms of language and integration. French is arguably more difficult than the other Latin languages, but you would be shocked at the proportion who can't even read Spanish or Italian (but they are all so darn similar, and common). I found very often that the Arab cultures were quite isolated from them in any sort of cultural integration, on the whole. I can more assuredly say this of France, but to be honest this is the same impression I got with a lot of Europe. The recent riots outside of Paris did not surprise me at all. You can come to S. California to see much more integration here, even if we have our share of riots. Don't get me wrong though, I loved my time there and made some great friends. The lack of integration is still something I greatly noticed, but perhaps its just a lack of time in evolution of said integration.

Switzerland is easily the most xenophobic place I've ever been (though I met some nice folks for sure). Northeastern Poland is not great either (dangerous!), but I enjoyed my time in this country otherwise. I've driven through Finland and Sweden, but had to make it very fast due to very high costs. Plenty of neo-nazis in Russia, I ran into a couple. I've also donned the jacket of a WWII Russian major who fought in every major battle on their soil. His stories are amazing, particularly when defending Moscow, and being in Germany on the day that the war was declared over. I've (through some extremely bizarre circumstances, long story) had ice cream given to me in the extremely modest aparment of a former SS soldier outside of Riga. (Yes, I was at first freaked out, but he was "extended" family of my travelling partner at the time, who is half Jewish. Complex story, and he was taken aback as well). Ok, I digress...

Adrian, its easy for you to critique us. That's fine. The Fenno-Scandinavian area has not and does not deal with immigration on any sort of level that we are used to. During my short time there, I never noticed a foreigner mingling with the natives. I did see a few foreign pan-handlers though. Im sure a lot has changed since its been a decade plus since then. Even the larger European countries have not experienced it like we have, though much more than the far north. And at least in my personal experiences, they are either much slower to culturally integrate, or are more xenophobic, or just on the same learning curve that the US has experienced in the past. I think and hope its the last, as I believe people are all the same, generally, and its that the culture is the prism from which the colors of any individual must be read.

Mr Mills, how many non-Europeans do you associate with on any regular basis that are not there for some temporary job? I do understand that its possible you may only associate with co-workers, and perhaps do not have the time to meet others... Im still rather curious though.

BTW, stratman never said the US did it all on its own. Your attitude seems to be that you disregard such sacrifices with a wave of a hand... I hope that's not the case.

 

[stratman]

You have a "quite a few" illegal aliens, and with that your Population is still only: 4,737,200? So, by "quite a few" I suppose you literally meant "a few"

Mr. Mills should visit Los Angeles or Homestead, Florida.

 

[mtrycrafts]

. But then you see messes like Social Security. .

But, is that the fault of SS or the management of it? Borrowed the excess, not invested and now the IOU is staggering. It is thievery of the system that causing the problems.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...Now I don't claim to have a solution but something has to change. Maybe the profit needs to be taken out of health care and maybe insurance companies need to be reformed.
.

That is the crux of it, isn't it.

 

[Halon451]

Mr. Mills should visit Los Angeles or Homestead, Florida.

Between the two there are more immigrants than the entire population of his country!

That's just two (count 'em Mr. Mills, that is 2) cities...

 

[stratman]

Health care is a morass with many, many players. Pharmaceuticals, doctors, insurances, hospitals and finally the government. Behind these are special interests, lobby firms, lawyers and the last and final: the patient.

When someone tells me that socializing this will work.....brother, go back to economics 101!

 

[markw]

Actually Western Europe has quite a few illegal immigrants; go on, really think about where they’d be coming from. Western Europe, Norway included has quite a large quota of legal immigration too.

You seem to be unaware that there are many humanitarian and peace keeping missions undertaken by most if not all European countries. Or maybe you don't?

You may want to read this before you start criticizing foreign aid practices; http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/charity.html

Talk numbers Let's talk raw dollars here.

And, what humanitarian missions? Peace keeping is the mop up work after the big guns have done their work.

Again, WHAT humanitarian aid? Where? Anyone in Africa? Oh, right, They are still expecting us to patrol the coast of Somalia for pirates.

You can post all the puff journals you want but we all know who the world comes running to when their butt is in a sling. ...and so do you.

 

[Halon451]

Mr. Mills

You have at this point, sir, officially been handed your own a$$.



And I am done "debating" with your self-serving arrogance.

 

[stratman]

How many do you have in Norway? Let's have some numbers here.

And, what humanitarian missions? Peace keeping is the mop up work after the big guns have done their work.

Again, WHAT humanitarian aid? where?

Read this!:

http://www.ssb.no/innvandring_en/

The immigrant population is now nearly 460 000. This group accounts for 9.7 per cent of Norway's population. Broken down by country, 56 000 are immigrants from other Nordic countries, 57 000 come from other countries in Western Europe and North America, 48 000 from the ten new EU-countries in East Europe, 52 000 from the rest of Eastern Europe, and 246 000 come from Turkey and countries in Asia, Africa and South America.

The majority of first-generation immigrants are from Poland, Sweden, Iraq and Denmark. 45 per cent of the immigrant population has Norwegian citizenship.

The number of immigrants varies with the immigration policy pursued by the government, the needs of the labour market and global crises. Immigration increased during and after the Balkan wars of the 1990s. In recent years, the majority of new immigrants have come to Norway as a result of family reunions, to start a family with other immigrants or with Norwegians.

 

[stratman]

Mr. Mills,

The numbers of "illegal" aliens are estimated as high as 20 million, with an average of 12-15 million, as the "known" numbers given. Pray tell this is what you call scale?!!!! 45% are citizens!!!In Norway!! If 45% of our illegals at least would get their citizenship and pay friggin taxes for the services they use maybe, just maybe, the situation wouldn't be so bad. But hey, Europe and the liberal press here and abroad just love to say how inhumane we gringos are. Hell my kid (5 years old) will be paying for someone's illegal kid who's just been born today. And I don't have a problem with that, but the least someone could say is "Thanks! America! We're becoming citizens to pay our part!" 45%!!!! It blows my mind!!!!

 

[mtrycrafts]

Furthermore, if you nationalize it, prices will go UP due to lack of competition.
.

Or, it might save on the huge profits that insurance companies make, redundant work at each insurance company, etc. After all, that is also an equal probability.