Free Health Care!

[rnatalli]

When our government can run the post office properly, maybe then, I'll trust them to run health care.

One other thing that bothers me about Universal healthcare, is how unfair it is.
Tax payers that do their best to live a healthy lifestyle, because they pay for health expenses of people who smoke, drink, do drugs, and eat unhealthily, thus making others responsible for paying for their poor decisions. What ever happened to personal responsibility?
Maybe some of us are sick of paying the consequences, for the poor judgment of others?

Perhaps people in MA are sick of helping subsidized people in the south? Why should people in MA have to pay to help FL residents with Federal money after a hurricane when they irresponsibly bought in the hurricane capital? MA only sees very little of the money it pays come back to the state. The reality is, you're only as strong as your weakest link so it's in everyone's interest to share responsibility.

Same applies to healthcare. In our current system, there are leeches. In any new system, there will be leeches. Now one could introduce a system where people who are obese for example have to pay higher premiums. But this is potentially worst as you're handing all your information to insurance companies who will do what they please with it. I remember the ACLU fought this very thing and even had a funny cartoon about someone ordering a pizza for like $80.

The post office isn't so bad. I use it all the time to send packages internationally as FedEx and UPS suck at it.

Like I said, I can see both sides and pretty mixed about it. I do believe government should handle some basic needs. I mean think about it, would you want our military to be based on a capitalist system and in the hands of for-profit corporations?

Capitalism and the free market does eventually correct errors, but it could take decades for it to do so. It's often slow like evolution and needs a kick.

 

[jonnythan]

There is no such thing as "free" health care.

Furthermore, if you nationalize it, prices will go UP due to lack of competition.

I don't have much problem subsidizing private insurance for people who really and truly can't afford it, but "universal health care" is crap. If you can afford it and don't get it, that's too bad.

 

[AdrianMills]

Bingo. That is the fundamental aspect to this whole debate - incentives and forward progress by way of capitalist venture. I think a lot of people don't truly understand or think about the implications of a free governmental health care system, and just how closely aligned with socialism it is. Much like industry, you take away the incentive for profit and gain, and there is no motive for development and research into newer, better practices. And it's easy for people to view the situation through rose colored glasses and label profit making in health care as an "Evil Enterprise" when in fact it is what is helping to sustain the very nature of its supremacy on a global scale. Is our system perfect? Hell no... but the way I see it, much of the weaknesses revolve around the insurance companies and not the medical profession itself. This is a very valid debate and should be brought to the forefront.

Furthermore, the second "invisible" drawback is the complacency of Americans becoming more and more reliant on the government to take care of their every need, and as Tomorrow so eloquently quoted from Jefferson - "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Our formula for success is the ability of our own people to manage their own affairs with as little intrusion from the government as possible. Going beyond that, and we are truly creeping into socialist territory, and that scares the bejeesus out of me, quite frankly.

That evil socialism gets everywhere right?

I think there are too many Americans that have been watching Fox news a little too much and have swallowed the propaganda, hook, line and sinker.

Maybe you haven't noticed that your economy is in freefall or that your housing market is in total disarray? Maybe you're unaware of your national debt? How about the fact that you probably have the highest percentage of unhealthy people of any industrialized country and probably fair pretty badly compared to a lot of the developing countries too? How about your productivity these days?

Maybe you haven't heard of CERN? You know that place in Europe which is doing some pretty nifty pure research that you guys can't because you canceled the SSC. How about JET? It’s one of those other research places in Europe that's actually managed to create a FUSION reaction and may very well help us stave off this century’s energy crisis when its technology helps to build clean commercial fusion reactors.

You can take the best practices of socialism without resorting to outright communism. Just look at Scandinavia; we live in a social welfare state which has all the benefits of a capitalist society but with social conscience. You know Norway is, per head of capita one of, if not the most wealthy county in the world?

I truly feel sorry for you guys in the US. You've been bombarded with extremely slanted capitalist propaganda for so long that you don't realize that there are better alternatives out there besides the "dog eat dog", "not my problem", "look after your own", "who gives a crap about that guy" mentality that your current system seems to encourage and admire.

This is something that really made me laugh a sad little chuckle, "helping to sustain the very nature of its supremacy on a global scale". Dude, don't you get it, it's not supreme. Your system isn't, your government isn't, your foreign policies certainly aren't and damn, your economy isn't much good either.

And no, I’m not trying to willy wave here to show that I’ve got a bigger one because to be quite honest, I couldn’t care less. But you people have to wake up and honestly look at the flaws in your system so you can fix them before it all comes crumbling down around your ears.

 

[jonnythan]

Oh boy, another "my nation is better than yours" rant.

Know what I believe in? Personal responsibility and freedom. Your socialist compromises don't allow for that.

That's why this is America and that is not.

 

[stratman]

Anyone interested in Mr. Mills slant read this:

http://www.ssb.no/english/


Population: 4,737,200. The tri county area of South Florida has: 5,413,212.

That's only 3 counties: Palm,Broward and Dade. I think it's easier to control and run a country of 4,7 million than a country of 320,000,000 plus, don't you think.

 

[stratman]

Anyone interested in Mr. Mills slant read this:

http://www.ssb.no/english/


Population: 4,737,200. The tri-county area of South Florida has: 5,413,212.

That's only 3 counties: Palm,Broward and Dade. I think it's easier to control and run a country of 4,7 million than a country of 320,000,000 plus, don't you think.

So much for the per capita slant. If Norway had the armed forces that we have to support, the space program, the school systems, the national infrastructures, the social programs, etc. etc., I'm sure your pretty statistics wouldn't look so good, but alas you're only 4,7.

 

[jostenmeat]

I was about to bring up that exact point, strat, thanks. Must be nice though! Squat for free, super clean environment... just some insane taxes and dreary weather though...

France was rated #1 in healthcare followed closely by Italy. The US ranks up there with Cuba, Costa Rica, and Slovenia. Funny thing is, Cuba's system is free whereas the US system is the most expensive in the world.

I lived and worked in France for a couple of years. The taxes they take out of your paycheck makes it far from free. I remember visiting a friend who was being hospitalized, and you were allowed to smoke in the lobby! (though this was 8 years ago).

 

[stratman]

I was about to bring up that exact point, strat, thanks. Must be nice though! Squat for free, super clean environment... just some insane taxes and dreary weather though...



I lived and worked in France for a couple of years. The taxes they take out of your paycheck makes it far from free. I remember visiting a friend who was being hospitalized, and you were allowed to smoke in the lobby! (though this was 8 years ago).

Those WHO reports are so bogus, I still can't believe they're referenced, like I said my brother in law practiced in Europe, so he knows the conditions from personal experience and he shudders at the thought of social medicine, man all we have to do is look at Canada, most Canadians go to NY for important medical care, 20/20 had an hour on this a couple of months back.

 

[Halon451]

Adrian you have demonstrated more than once a tendency to condescend and here you're certainly showing your colors. So let me get this straight - you claim to be an expert on all things that make America flawed and critically doomed, while bringing up a random reference about CERN? A multi-national scientific organization which is comprised of several unions - we're talking sovereign politics here my friend, not particle physics. Thanks.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match about who's country is better, because frankly it's juvenile, and you're starting to sound like someone who just had his foot stomped on, and to me it's merely posturing. We have real issues that need to be addressed here in our country, and the kind of "propaganda" that you are relaying is one of the underlying causes for the stress fractures in our society. We are slowly being led away from what has made us great since the beginning, all in the name of "Change" and "Hope", and socialist nations have proven themselves over the entire course of history to eventually fail. It is a doomed concept, no matter how you spin it.

Now, go farm your sheep. (not a reference to Sheepstar)

 

[AdrianMills]

So much for the per capita slant. If Norway had the armed forces that we have to support, the space program, the school systems, the national infrastructures, the social programs, etc. etc., I'm sure your pretty statistics wouldn't look so good, but alas you're only 4,7.

Yes, Norway has a relatively small population. And? What exactly?

The school systems, your infrastructures and the social programs; all those scale with your population, the more people there are, the more money to support those systems. If anything, it's more cost effective to run large systems the more people there are to use them and the more people you have to fund those systems; have you any idea how cost inefficient it is to build roads and to keep them open in winter to some of the tiny communities we have in Norway?

You're also looking at Norway in isolation; how about the rest of Western Europe? The vast majority of which have social welfare states and none that I know of have the current problems that America does.

Do you really need to spend that amount of money on your armed forces? Really?

And the space program; I actually like the spending of money on research, pure and applied. It's a good thing but how efficient is that space program of yours? How much money is wasted unnecessarily?

This is not about one country being "better" than another so keep your hurt patriotic pride in your pocket. This is about rationally and objectively looking at alternative systems.

 

[Halon451]

How about the fact that you probably have the highest percentage of unhealthy people of any industrialized country and probably fair pretty badly compared to a lot of the developing countries too?

Outrageously false.

 

[mouettus]

I live in Canada and we have free health care. It is the best thing because everyone has the right to have those services, rich or poor. Where the problem is, it's that since everyone can have health care, everybody goes to the hospital all the time. If you wanna have a surgery, get in line! 7-8 months to 2 years of wait is common for certain surgeries. But still... I get out off there without owing my butt to the nation.

 

[stratman]

Yes, Norway has a relatively small population. And? What exactly?

It's easier to run a mom and pop operation than a country.

The school systems, your infrastructures and the social programs; all those scale with your population, the more people there are, the more money to support those systems. If anything, it's more cost effective to run large systems the more people there are to use them and the more people you have to fund those systems; have you any idea how cost inefficient it is to build roads and to keep them open in winter to some of the tiny communities we have in Norway?

Not everyone in Amercia is on welfare, a small minority, so it's not in scale, yet we upped the ante and made it a free for all and people abuse the system thus putting undue pressure on it. Cost efficient to build roads? A third of the US is under conditions similar to your small country, we do a fine, though expensive, job of it.

You're also looking at Norway in isolation; how about the rest of Western Europe? The vast majority of which have social welfare states and none that I know of have the current problems that America does.

Europe? Their system works for a population with no choice but to follow it. Given options, I wonder how many would.

Do you really need to spend that amount of money on your armed forces? Really?

Yes we do, I don't think Norway will come to our aid anytime soon.

And the space program; I actually like the spending of money on research, pure and applied. It's a good thing but how efficient is that space program of yours? How much money is wasted unnecessarily?

I don't work for NASA, but I don't remember Norway doing anything worthwhile in space research.

This is not about one country being "better" than another so keep your hurt patriotic pride in your pocket. This is about rationally and objectively looking at alternative systems.

What you offer, our fathers fought against in the Cold War, no thanks SOCIALISM, we'll find a way!

 

[AdrianMills]

Adrian you have demonstrated more than once a tendency to condescend and here you're certainly showing your colors. So let me get this straight - you claim to be an expert on all things that make America flawed and critically doomed, while bringing up a random reference about CERN? A multi-national scientific organization which is comprised of several unions - we're talking sovereign politics here my friend, not particle physics. Thanks.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match about who's country is better, because frankly it's juvenile, and you're starting to sound like someone who just had his foot stomped on, and to me it's merely posturing. We have real issues that need to be addressed here in our country, and the kind of "propaganda" that you are relaying is one of the underlying causes for the stress fractures in our society. We are slowly being led away from what has made us great since the beginning, all in the name of "Change" and "Hope", and socialist nations have proven themselves over the entire course of history to eventually fail. It is a doomed concept, no matter how you spin it.

Now, go farm your sheep. (not a reference to Sheepstar)

Thanks. That’s a nice mature post you have written there.

Yes, I've mentioned CERN before, I do so for various reasons some of which are that there is a slim chance that some Americans might have actually heard of it, it's also quite an impressive non-profit research organization. America isn't a member state btw although it has visitors participating in experiments there. I actually thought it was very sad that funding was withdrawn for the SSC.

You should probably do some more research; a social welfare state is not the same as "Socialism" (at least not in the way that some of you seem to think of as socialism) or "Communism". And I think we are doing quite well thank you.

But I should have known that nationalistic pride would raise its ugly head in a thread such as this. For what it's worth, I'm not Norwegian; I've lived and worked 4 different countries over the years and they are all far from perfect.

But whatever. Enjoy you country. Just hope that you never get a chronic illness.

 

[stratman]

I live in Canada and we have free health care. It is the best thing because everyone has the right to have those services, rich or poor. Where the problem is, it's that since everyone can have health care, everybody goes to the hospital all the time. If you wanna have a surgery, get in line! 7-8 months to 2 years of wait is common for certain surgeries. But still... I get out off there without owing my butt to the nation.

In the US, EVERYONE has a right to medical services, it's the law.

 

[stratman]

Thanks. That’s a nice mature post you have written there.

Yes, I've mentioned CERN before, I do so for various reasons some of which are that there is a slim chance that some Americans might have actually heard of it, it's also quite an impressive non-profit research organization. America isn't a member state btw although it has visitors participating in experiments there. I actually thought it was very sad that funding was withdrawn for the SSC.

You should probably do some more research; a social welfare state is not the same as "Socialism" or "Communism". And I think we are doing quite well thank you.

But I should have known that nationalistic pride would raise its ugly head in a thread such as this. For what it's worth, I'm not Norwegian; I've lived and worked 4 different countries over the years and they are all far from perfect.

But whatever. Enjoy you country. Just hope that you never get a chronic illness.

Nice mature and arrogant response from you. There's actually no love lost for America on your part, that's fine we Americans love our country, next time you question the need to stock up on arms, I'll remind you of a couple of wars that our fathers and grandfathers had to die in freeing your little patch of land across the pond. Nationalistic pride, you wouldn't know that if it bit you on your pink butt.

 

[markw]

Yeah, it's easy taking care of yourself when you don't have to worry about anyone else, isn't it? How many illegal immigrants do you have to worry about?

I am waiting for Norway, or any european country for that matter, to undertake any humanitarian missions outside their borders. Hell, you couldn't even handle Serbia without crying for our intervention. I'm fairly sure that almost any suffering country in sub-saharian Africa would benefit from whatever aid you and your neighboring countries can offer.

Oh, I wonder if we can bill you retroactively for all the NATO troops that kept your collective sardines out of a can for the last 60 years?

 

[AdrianMills]

Nice mature and arrogant response from you. There's actually no love lost for America on your part, that's fine we Americans love our country, next time you question the need to stock up on arms, I'll remind you of a couple of wars that our fathers and grandfathers had to die in freeing your little patch of land across the pond. Nationalistic pride, you wouldn't know that if it bit you on your pink butt.

You do of course realize that the US didn't want to enter the war in Western Europe even when asked to and only joined the fray when Hitler forced the issue by starting to sink US shipping. I think there was little altruism involved in the decision. The other thing is that although you may think that the US army single handedly won WWII I can assure you that they helped the allies to win.

And as far as I’m aware, and please correct me if I’m wrong, you made a bunch of money on war loans; I think the UK paid its last installment in 2006.

And I also get this John Wayne gung-ho hero mentality that you’ve been indoctrinated with. Unfortunately you have to understand that the rest of the world, at least most of us, don’t see the US as a knight in shinning armor and we really don’t think we need saving at the moment thank you very much.

 

[markw]

Unfortunately you have to understand that the rest of the world, at least most of us, don’t see the US as a knight in shinning armor and we really don’t think we need saving at the moment thank you very much.

short term memory? Gee, you didn't say that 60 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Norway_by_Nazi_Germany

Face it, without the good ole US of A you'd be speaking either German or Russian today. Heck pretty soon you might be speaking Farsi if we turn our backs on you ...and your government knows that.

Really sticks in yer craw, doesn't it?

 

[stratman]

You do of course realize that the US didn't want to enter the war in Western Europe even when asked to and only joined the fray when Hitler forced the issue by starting to sink US shipping. I think there was little altruism involved in the decision. The other thing is that although you may think that the US army single handedly won WWII I can assure you that they helped the allies to win.

And as far as I’m aware, and please correct me if I’m wrong, you made a bunch of money on war loans; I think the UK paid its last installment in 2006.

And I also get this John Wayne gung-ho hero mentality that you’ve been indoctrinated with. Unfortunately you have to understand that the rest of the world, at least most of us, don’t see the US as a knight in shinning armor and we really don’t think we need saving at the moment thank you very much.

December 7th 1941, Japan, not Hitler.

A bunch of money equally paid in blood my friend.

Personally I don't give a rat's a$$ about what anyone thinks about my country. All I know is that when one of you whiners need something we're more than happy to lend a hand. John Wayne gung-ho mentality kicked the NAZIs out of Europe, kept Korea from being overtaken and kept the peace during the Cold War, so I guess it works.

Since when did you start caring about the UK? I thought you were the Internationalist, "lived and worked in 4 countries," you mean you actually have "nationalistic" feelings? Huh, I mistook you for a "citizen of the world," you know, redistribution of wealth, one singular controlling government, no borders, no national sovereignty, all equal under one yoke. Goes to prove....