For the Love of Audio & Hi-Fi. Is it Dead?

Is the Romance of High Fidelity Dead?

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 21.6%
  • No

    Votes: 31 60.8%
  • What romance?

    Votes: 9 17.6%

  • Total voters
    51
diskreet

diskreet

Audioholic
infantile convenience whim
Generations before yours said exactly the same thing about all the technology you like. In their day, real music enthusiasts saw the performer live. In other people's time, real musicians used only acoustic instruments. And on and on with the no true Scotsman fallacy.

From what I gather the traditional audiophile argument is essentially "progress should stop where I'm most comfortable with it".
 
B

Ben Klesc

Audiophyte
Generations before yours said exactly the same thing about all the technology you like. In their day, real music enthusiasts saw the performer live. In other people's time, real musicians used only acoustic instruments. And on and on with the no true Scotsman fallacy.

From what I gather the traditional audiophile argument is essentially "progress should stop where I'm most comfortable with it".
That was a general statement about current mass marketplace and not audiophiles. There are many companies keeping the spirit of customization and personal touch alive. One person I can think of is Peter Ledermann at Soundsmith phono cartridges and pres. What a wealth of knowledge he is. Amazing products. I also will say that one product line which continues to see vast improvements is headphones and I arguably thank Beats by Dr. Dre for convincing the public they should spend $400 on headphones. The audiophile headphone community is still strong at malls across America and major brands are selling headphones that have incredible sound for the price.

It's not that the past world doesn't exist today, it's just that the audiophile market has become more of a niche like other commenters have said and thus more expensive to obtain. Perhaps in the 60's and 70's you could walk into a big box store and find high end audio equipment made by the big guys like Sony, Phillips, JVC, Kenwood, Teac, Akai, Marantz, Pioneer for a very decent price that was targeted towards consumers. They were called house brands. Yes prices have gone down but quality hasn't gone up. For a budget under $500 you can find way better deals on used equipment from the last century. You won't find anything decent built today.

Again not saying that you can't spend $20,000 on a pair of speakers because they are still out there, but the big box stores and big electronics companies including American companies are either gone or they have moved towards the LoFi market. A perfect example I can think of is MSC line marketed for JCPenney. Techmoan did an episode about one of their products known as the VTR Component TV. JCPenney worked with respected manufactures to include high quality components such as Technics. So you were shopping for clothes and all of a sudden, hey what's this TOTL receiver over here? HiFi is not as accessible as it once was, and the repair shops that popped up to service the market that once existed have all but dried up. It now costs less money to buy a replacement when something breaks, so manufactures no longer bother making their products easily repairable. Yes in the past there was junk too, but there was also a lot of well built products being sold en masse to Americans at stores within driving distance.

Not one manufacture can make a decent cassette deck, reel to reel, radio receiver, AB tube amp and pres, and arguably phonograph today at a reasonable price. That's the unfortunate part that if you can't mass produce something and there is not as large of a demand, costs go up. While it is true that you can get better sound out of a smart phone than with a 1970's cassette recorder, it doesn't help us who love and adore our analog gear. Flat screens and tablets can be made with cheap components overseas and easily mass produced, but analog gear requires that you build with high quality components to a higher standard to get decent results and the big players are not doing it anymore. The digital world is perfect no matter what, and so it is extremely simpler and easy to get consistent results at a lower cost to the manufacturer. This is a face of reality that all of us have to deal with. I am now my own technician making my own repairs. I can turn to no one but myself. I can't walk into Walmart or Best Buy and ask for repair advice on ancient equipment. There has been a definite decline in build quality and selection surrounding the products sold at box stores in recent decades. That's unfortunate for HiFi enthusiasts.
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Yes prices have gone down but quality hasn't gone up. For a budget under $500 you can find way better deals on used equipment from the last century. You won't find anything decent built today.
Well, I don't think that's necessarily the case either. Companies like Monoprice and Dayton are producing audiophile grade components that outperform the older gear wth budget pricing. Audioholics has a few articles putting together some great sounding budget systems at a few different price points, $500 being one of them.
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
These days I can pretty much satisfy all of my music listening desires from an iPhone 7+ running iTunes to an Airport Express connected via optical S/PDIF to a Parasound P6 Preamplifier & DAC feeding some old amps to even older speakers. For multi-channel SACD pleasure I just substitute the iPhone with an OPPO-205. At any rate, seems to me most anyone today can afford the pleasures of recorded music entertainment from any means it can be enjoyed, meaning old school, or by the latest means No reason to lament. In my case I just have kept the gear I have purchased over the years, whether needed or not: cassette decks, DAT decks, turntables, CD players, SACD players, and Tuners and while I still occasionally use this stuff, the iPhone is my go to source component most of the time.
49727485498_1e01c8e803_c.jpg
 
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Ben Klesc

Audiophyte
Well, I don't think that's necessarily the case either. Companies like Monoprice and Dayton are producing audiophile grade components that outperform the older gear wth budget pricing. Audioholics has a few articles putting together some great sounding budget systems at a few different price points, $500 being one of them.
What gear are we talking about though? I don't see one major manufacture making and marketing a reel to reel, cassette deck, turntable, receiver that is decently built. Today you can get the same sound out of a smart phone over a streaming app. Yes you can and its vastly cheaper, but there is nothing else like looking and touching the old equipment and how they used to build them up. It could not be done today. The experience is more than just the perceived sound, it's the complete customization and physical experience so to speak. It's just not popular anymore for music listeners to dump their paycheck on a shiny receiver with VU meters and wood grain.

Here is a great video talking about what was brought up in this article. It's true. You can spend vastly less today to get the same audio and it fits in your pocket. We are still rebuilding and restoring electronics that were built 50 years ago. In 50 years is the gadgets and toys being sold in the market right now going to be repairable?

"Walk into a Best Buy and go over to where they used to sell the stereo systems. You don't see them anymore. In it's place are these Bluetooth devices."

 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
What gear are we talking about though? I don't see one major manufacture making and marketing a reel to reel, cassette deck, turntable, receiver that is decently built.
Well... they don't make and market Model Ts, Atari 2600's or put cocaine in over the counter remedies and cures anymore either.

I get what your saying about the physical aspect of it, and will even admit I think I could have fun playing with those old formats but they fell to the wayside for a reason. Oh, and I think you'll find more than one of us here willing to blow a paycheck on something with fancy lighted vu meters, myself included, but when lesser priced options are available with equal performance they usually win out. Budget no option? Sure, gimme me some Macs! lol.

Dunno about that wood grain tho, I was never a huge fan of that. Always preferred the cleaner looking silver or black. Or black, gold and blue, with glowy blue vu meters...
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
The one nice thing about older gear is that it was serviceable, and still is today. It's nice that I could replace the fuse style lamps in our old Pioneer receiver with compatable LED lighting. You can get a replacement for just about any capacitor and most transistors can still be replaced except for the harder to find MOSFETs. Older AVRs are destined for the scrap yard though, but that is a result of advancements in video, not audio. People could use those old AVRs for audio only setups too, but when most see an AVR with no HDMI and only component or SVHS inputs, they take a pass. There are loads of these on all of the used marketplaces. And when they do break down, good luck trying to find someone capable of diagnosing a computer controlled AVR, let alone a schematic for the damn thing. It's kind'a sad that these beautiful full featured AVRs will be lucky to last as long as any of the old analogue stuff and are more likely destined for the recycle heap.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
From what I gather the traditional audiophile argument is essentially "progress should stop where I'm most comfortable with it".
Sadly this is not limited to the audiophile community. Gaming, cars, guns, and just about any other hobby are like this. Some folks think their way is the only way. Of course, anyone who think that is wrong.
 
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Ben Klesc

Audiophyte
Sadly this is not limited to the audiophile community. Gaming, cars, guns, and just about any other hobby are like this. Some folks think their way is the only way. Of course, anyone who think that is wrong.
Guilty as charged. No MP3s allowed in my house! :p

Folks must also understand this. Progress is never linear, and to understand this you have to move into the discussion of economics rather than audio. Economics is an extremely underplayed aspect of the audio world that not many realize is affecting their purchasing decisions.

The market is only willing to put money into research and development based on demand. So the peak of a certain technology advancement was when they were most popular. The peak of vinyl, reel to reel, and cassette were may decades ago, so naturally anything made after the peak market period will continue to be a degradation in quality and performance. It's not that nothing is made that sounds good today, but the market has changed and thus there are many aspects of audio enjoyment and listening experience that was only available in the past.

Yes that is right. The same can be said for many hobbies and that is a true statement. Technological advancement is solely based on market trends and not necessarily what is the best. The best CRT television sets were made in the 60's and 70's. The best ribbon mics were made in the 40's and 50's. The best AB tube amplifiers were made in the 60's. The best AM receivers were made well over five decades ago.

For people like me who like the workflow and yes "sound" of analog equipment that is a little disappointment. Especially when it comes to recording. It's simply a misconception that everything new is better, as it always depends on which category and time period of technology we are talking about. Once there is no longer a demand a company makes a decision to stop investing their resources into development and quality tanks.

 
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Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
For people like me who like the workflow and yes "sound" of analog equipment that is a little disappointment. Especially when it comes to recording. It's simply a misconception that everything new is better, as it always depends on which category and time period of technology we are talking about. Once there is no longer a demand a company makes a decision to stop investing their resources into development and quality tanks.

It's interesting that you should post a video on turntables. What he describes sounds more like nostalgia. I have experience with Thorens turntables that had a floating chassis and if you bumped those the chassis would bounce around like crazy. There were some poor designs on expensive tables. My current Project table has a carbon fibre tone arm, the base is out of non-resonating HDF, the acrylic platter is also non-resonating and the motor is microprocessor controlled so that the speed is always spot on. It outperforms anything I have previously owned and it's not even close to being their best model. I suppose that supports your comment regarding demand and development as there has been a resurgence in vinyl. Not sure if the new tone arms are as good as say the ones from SME but there's some very good analogue gear out there.

Personally, I think it's a great time to be into hi-fi. I was out of it for a while when raising a family but when I got back into it there were great advancements. The quality of speaker you can get for the money has vastly improved, especially in bookshelf speakers. Surround recordings on a modern AVR blow away any old quadraphonic system and with Neural-X it's a whole new experience. And I especially love that I can stream my music collection to any room that I choose. I don't need multiple turntables. Add a small streaming device to any amp / receiver / powered speaker and I have instant access to thousands of songs. Whether it's hi-fi or not is really the same as it was years ago. It all depends upon how much you want to invest in the components and whether you take the time to place them properly.

For recordings, I think we're a victim of consumer taste. The gear is good enough, but too many people like highly compressed music. Might sound better on cheap earbuds but it sucks big time on a quality sound system. Takes a little more effort now to find a recording with realistic dynamics but they're out there.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Well... they don't make and market Model Ts, Atari 2600's or put cocaine in over the counter remedies and cures anymore either.

I get what your saying about the physical aspect of it, and will even admit I think I could have fun playing with those old formats but they fell to the wayside for a reason. Oh, and I think you'll find more than one of us here willing to blow a paycheck on something with fancy lighted vu meters, myself included, but when lesser priced options are available with equal performance they usually win out. Budget no option? Sure, gimme me some Macs! lol.

Dunno about that wood grain tho, I was never a huge fan of that. Always preferred the cleaner looking silver or black. Or black, gold and blue, with glowy blue vu meters...
Funny you should mention the Atari 2600. Just dug out my Atari 800XL computer and it still works. :D I'll post some pics later when I get the disc drive connected.

I like the blue VU meters and old back-lit displays but hate blue LED lighting. It's horrible for those of us with poor eyesight. Wish manufacturers would take that into account.
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Funny you should mention the Atari 2600. Just dug out my Atari 800XL computer and it still works. :D I'll post some pics later when I get the disc drive connected.

I like the blue VU meters and old back light displays but hate blue LED lighting. It's horrible for those of us with poor eyesight. Wish manufacturers would take that into account.
Well funny I'm posting in this thread about older formats when I'm officially gonna have a turntable by next week! Yup. @afterlife2 got a new tt so he's gonna send me his old one, I pay shipping. Nothing super fancy, just a nice little entry level Kenwood KD-38R, belt drive. It's so nice of him to offer I couldn't say no.

Uh oh. Pogre's gonna be listening to vinyl soon... :eek:
 
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panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Well funny I'm posting in this thread about older formats when I'm officially gonna have a turntable by next week! Yup. @afterlife2 got a new tt so he's gonna send me his old one, I pay shipping. Nothing super fancy, just a nice little entry level Technics KD-38R, belt drive. It's so nice of him to offer I couldn't say no.

Uh oh. Pogre's gonna be listening to vinyl soon... :eek:
And you thought you were running out of room now. Vinyl albums take up a lot of space. Soon we're going to read about Pogre's record room. :)
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Well funny I'm posting in this thread about older formats when I'm officially gonna have a turntable by next week! Yup. @afterlife2 got a new tt so he's gonna send me his old one, I pay shipping. Nothing super fancy, just a nice little entry level Technics KD-38R, belt drive. It's so nice of him to offer I couldn't say no.

Uh oh. Pogre's gonna be listening to vinyl soon... :eek:
My Lord, do I see the Four Horsemen riding over the horizon?
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Lol.

Well... my wife already has a small vinyl collection that hasn't seen daylight in decades so we will have some to play right off the bat. I might get the TOOL album for collector's sake, but I really don't see me buying up a crap load of vinyl. At least now I'll have something to play with tho. I've always said I get the allure. The physical connection to the media and the occasional pop or crackle is kinda fun.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Or divorce. :D
I'd agree, but she seems VERY tolerant up to this point.

However, when he starts talking about buying a house to store all his gear, then we'll see a lot of for sale threads with his name on them. :eek:
 
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Ben Klesc

Audiophyte
By the way comparing over the counter cocaine to reel to reel audio gave me a good chuckle. I really wish a modern manufacture could produce an audiophile cassette deck or reel to reel in the year 2021 and market it at a consumer level price point. That would be a dream to hold. One can dream.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Good grief why go backwards? Where are you sourcing tape from is another consideration rather than just the player/recorders.
 
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Ben Klesc

Audiophyte
Good grief why go backwards? Where are you sourcing tape from is another consideration rather than just the player/recorders.
If it can be called "going backwards", one could consider the recent vinyl format resurgence over the last decade going backwards. Now I'm not a purist. I quite enjoy listening to MP3's on my phone, but I still believe that digital and analog are like apples and oranges. They cannot be compared with each other or be put in competition one against the other. There is a reason I still pull out my cassettes and it's not just nostalgia. Especially when it comes to recording, if money was no object I would gravitate towards tape every time.
 
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