Flushing Out Myths in Consumer Audio

krabapple

krabapple

Banned
mtrycrafts said:
You heard correctly. If sighted amp test is biased, so is sighted speaker comparisons, even if they are audibly different.

Dr. Floyd Toole has a paper or two on this.:D

This one is about 4 speakers judged by grading a number of parameters, sighted and DBT. Totally different results from DBT. Speaker's bias the listener just as much as anything in audio.
Toole, F. E. and Olive, S. E. ' Hearing is Believing vs Believing is Hearing: Blind vs Sighted Listening Tests and Other Interesting Things,' 97th AES Convention, Nov 1994, Print #3894.

This one is about what people prefer from a speaker. Similarly at this link from Mirage, tells to NRC story where Tool did his research with others for 20+ years. Very large population, 2000 and 330 speakers.
http://miragespeakers.com/nrc_story.shtml

Toole, F. E. Loudspeaker Measurements and Their Relationship to Listening Preferences,' Part 1, Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Vol 34, No.4, Apr 1986, pg 227-235; Part two, JAES Vol 34, No.5, May 1986, pg 323-348.
But this is is in some ways the piece de resistance:

JAES
2003 September, Volume 51 Number 9
Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study
Sean E. Olive 806
The audio industry makes many assumptions about the appropriateness of various quality testing methods, but there have not been any significant studies to validate these assumptions. The choices are reduced to using trained listeners, who are efficient and discriminating, or untrained listeners, who are more representative of the user population. This 18-month study shows that trained listeners produce the same conclusion as 268 untrained listeners when evaluating loudspeakers.
 
krabapple

krabapple

Banned
mtrycrafts said:
Assumptions? Hardly. The body of evidence goes back 30+ YEARS. not sure what you are trying to assume.
But you assume it's *true*. That's just your opinion! This is America, buddy! Don't you realize, in the 'he said, she said' culture, that every set of opinions deserved equal consideration?? That's why 'intelligent design' is just as valid as evolution, homeopathy is just as valid as treatments tested via Randomized Double Blind Trials, and Uri Geller is just as trustworthy as James Randi. Good old common sense is your best guide to the truth. If you think 'authorities' are wrong, they probably are! Don't you forget it.
 
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krabapple

krabapple

Banned
rjbudz said:
Does anybody know a cure for a bad case of the Krabs? ;)
Self-medication and prophylaxis: stop replying now, and reduce exposure in the future. :p
 
S

Sleestack

Senior Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:


What is there to discuss about that component when evidence is lacking from a poster to support their position? On the other hand, audio and human principals don't need specs to discuss why it would sound the same, or different, for that matter? Posts are put forth from a rather weak position, a biased observation. What more is there to discuss then? It is meaningless to discuss flawed perception without those audio and human principals of know science?


Exactly. What is there to discuss? The poster may be totally incorrect, but without any information or evidence regarding the specific pieces at hand, it is just as dubious for you to be making any statements of fact about those claims. Why not at least identify the factors that contribute to audible sound differences and show that those pieces could not be different based on those specific criteria?



Assumptions? Hardly. The body of evidence goes back 30+ YEARS. not sure what you are trying to assume.


You don't even know what assumptions I'm talking about. Again, there you go assuming.



No. It is meaningless to closed minds(yes, those claimed open minds are really closed) and some, who want to know what is in the real audio world and audio science, they will research the cited papers and draw their conclusions. The others, whose belief system is so fragile, well that is what you see.


It is good to see you hold yourself in such high regard. Perhaps you are the one with the closed mind. At the very least, it is very narrow. Of course, you'll never see it that way. Do you even realize that I don't have a problem with your underlying beliefs. I simply think that the way you go about things is rather simple minded.

Only when testable claims are made anyhow. And why not? Should pseudo science be allowed to flourish unchallenged??? That is why that green pill to improve car gas mileage is racking in $20+ million. Or, the billion $ market for magnet therapy. Am I supposed to just pass on it???

No psuedo-science should not go unchallenged. But when challenging it, you should rely on facts and evidence. That would require you to do more than just cite papers that support a general position.

That in itself is a problem. You may place too much weight on personal experience of dubious quality and value. My personal experience is that a bucket of water bends metal pipes and the air straightens them out.

You really don't get it do you? you need to take your blinders off from time to time. All I'm saying is that if someone comes in and says A sounds different than B, unless you are going to point relevant statistics about those amps (that establish there is no audible difference), or are going to give us evidence (i.e. freq. resp. graphs) based on your testing of those amps, you are excercising no more scientific rigor than the person making the original claim. I'm not placing any weight on personal subjective opinions.
............
 
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Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
krabapple said:
Self-medication and prophylaxis: stop replying now, and reduce exposure in the future. :p
A well designed DBT is the principle, valid methodology used to analyze human actions, reactions, and interactions. It is just that you, my junior-playtime-self-proclaimed scientist, haven't quite learned how to design, run, or interpret one correctly.
 
krabapple

krabapple

Banned
rjbudz said:
A well designed DBT is the principle, valid methodology used to analyze human actions, reactions, and interactions. It is just that you, my junior-playtime-self-proclaimed scientist, haven't quite learned how to design, run, or interpret one correctly.
Wow, talk about *inflamed*. I agree with the first sentence, but that's not the whole story of audio comparison; the DBT results should be independently supportable by measurements. Contrary to what audiophools believe, a an audible difference really should be reflected in a measurable difference. Whereas a measurable difference may not be audible. So it's a two-pillar edifice.

Btw, DBT has shown that prescription I gave you to be effective. It may also enhance your 'audio experience', who knows? :p
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
krabapple said:
Contrary to what audiophools believe

As I said, DBT's measure human interaction. It is your continual use of arrogant, egotistical, dismissive, and condescending phrases such as the above that cause me to believe that you have only rudimentary understanding of human interaction. :p
 
krabapple

krabapple

Banned
Whereas if I model my *human interaction* on yours....I bet no one would notice a difference. Even without a DBT. :D
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
Go Stand in the Corner

I'm putting you both in "time out"!

Now shake hands and go play nice. And no more name calling!
 
krabapple

krabapple

Banned
Where did I call anyone in particular a 'name'? Are you denying that foolish audiophiles exist?
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
majorloser said:
I'm putting you both in "time out"!

Now shake hands and go play nice. And no more name calling!
The moderloser has spoken.

SheepStar
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
krabapple said:
But this is is in some ways the piece de resistance:
This 18-month study shows that trained listeners produce the same conclusion as 268 untrained listeners when evaluating loudspeakers.

Yes, thank you:D
The only advantage to trained listeners is that they probably come to those results more quickly:D

In a way, this showed a similar result:

Gould, Glenn, "The Grass is Always Greener in the Outtakes," High Fidelity, Aug 75, pg 54-59.

Conductors didn't do any better than musicians or lay listeners in identifying the segments that the conductors didn't like about their performance and outtakes.:D
 
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