Floor standing Speakers and "Building them in" vs. In wall?

nathan_h

nathan_h

Audioholic
Hey all. Bit of a beginner here with a new setup and want to get it right. I am a klipsch fan and have been looking at the Klipsch model RP-8000F. To my understanding you want floor standing at least a foot from any wall... these speakers have the port for air movement in the back. I have heard them before and like the sound but am also wanting to conceal them for bonus points and acceptance with the wife. If they are "built-in" to cabinetry type of setup what is that going to do to the sound? I was thinking of framing a wall/false wall out away from the real wall to "insert" these speakers to conceal them with a screen or something... The look of being in-wall when they are not. The area behind the "false wall" would be open space and sound resonating from the port etc. could be weird. Only other option is an in-wall really as this is going into a basement room that is not dedicated to being a theater. 20' x 35'

Thoughts ?
This is a great idea in terms of the final result (speakers in a wall, clean look) and the advice you have received to NOT put "normal" speakers in the wall is solid.

Luckily, you have not bought any speakers yet.

There are a lot of very high quality in wall speakers that would be perfect for you.

Triad, as Dawn mentions, was a pioneer in the field. Their "in wall" speakers perform just as well as normal "in room" speakers -- in fact, sometimes better because being in a wall the engineers can make use of that fact to optimize the speakers for in wall placement. The speakers leverage the natural increase in output from being in a wall, the crossover and drivers are optimized to compensate for being in a wall, etc.

Other excellent in wall speakers to consider are from Revel, KEF, heck, even Klipsch makes some fine in wall speakers if you love that special Klipsch flavor to your sound. On a budget, the Monoprice THX in wall speakers do a good job.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
This is a great idea in terms of the final result (speakers in a wall, clean look) and the advice you have received to NOT put "normal" speakers in the wall is solid.

Luckily, you have not bought any speakers yet.

There are a lot of very high quality in wall speakers that would be perfect for you.

Triad, as Dawn mentions, was a pioneer in the field. Their "in wall" speakers perform just as well as normal "in room" speakers -- in fact, sometimes better because being in a wall the engineers can make use of that fact to optimize the speakers for in wall placement. The speakers leverage the natural increase in output from being in a wall, the crossover and drivers are optimized to compensate for being in a wall, etc.

Other excellent in wall speakers to consider are from Revel, KEF, heck, even Klipsch makes some fine in wall speakers if you love that special Klipsch flavor to your sound. On a budget, the Monoprice THX in wall speakers do a good job.
Any in wall system that has the back of the drivers firing into the wall space is not a good system on many counts.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Since you have just an open space now, with the walls still open. It is time to visit a few points.

I am not entirely clear of your furniture positioning, or final speaker positions, and the orientation of the room acoustically.

I would say that having the mains and center fire into the short axis of the room is a bad plan. The fronts need to be on the short wall firing down the long axis. Doing otherwise, brooks really spoiling the acoustic result.

You are absolutely right to consider aesthetics in the total design. This is far too often given short shrift, with not near enough thought being given to it. Part of the reason is that it is a very difficult arena.

I have mentioned the importance of putting cables in conduit. Any cable can fail, it is all too easy to nail a cable during construction with disastrous results. The big reason is that technology changes, and you have to be able to change cables easily. Neglecting this is a massive mistake.

Allied to that is the house Internet connectivity. If possible I advise making the main HT system also the heart of your house Ethernet structure. This is because it is that system that will place the biggest demands on that system. I find lack of thought to this is a major problem, HT or not. Builders just don't realise that this is as important as the rest of the utilities. However they give it short shrift as a rule.

So I was were you are just a short time ago.



Part of the conduit system.





I prefer steel for the speaker leads. Too few realise that speaker leads can, and do, pick up RF interference and feed it back to high gain stages via negative feedback circuits. You can use tech tubes that are a cheaper easier solution.

These are the tech tubes for the nerve center of the Ethernet backbone. These bring Internet hardwire to other locations were there is fixed equipment requiring access to the Internet, reserving Wifi for mobile devices.



There is a patch bay that interconnects all units and local hubs. Wi-Fi is via the Netgear Orbi mesh system.

Make sure you get good access for cables to your TV locations.



Now you can build in speakers to an extent, and actually turn it to use, and control the rear radiation and mould the distribution pattern.

Dennis Murphy has commented here that a speaker even just poking out from beyond a wall requires some BSC. I agree totally.

I will show you how cabinetry can be made use of.

This is the front of my studio.



The speakers are well ahead of the adjacent wall. The center is a through wall design.

The rear backs protrude beyond the bookcase and the shelf contents help scatter the sound.



If the system is complex, the rear access with a chase behind the equipment is a good idea if you can manage. You need to give thought to access.



Now your other option to use those Klipsch speakers is to build them into a bookshelf.

This is our family room. I like this space. It has been snowing hard all day. That Denver storm went further north than predicted and into the Twin Cities Metro, and farther north than predicted. It travelled as far north as the Brainerd Lakes area. A little south of the metro they had a foot of snow. So I have been in front of the fire today listening to music. That system sounds very good. The shelving largely solves the flat wall problem.



I like it so much that I am currently designing a subwoofer to go into that space below the TV. It seems to be just asking for it to beef up the subwooferage.

The back panels in the equipment cabinet are easily removable to give access.

One caveat is that I design my own speakers and can tweek them to their environment. However, I have done this sort of thing enough to know that what you see here actually behaves very differently to a flat wall.

So there is plenty of opportunity to be creative with systems in the home environment. A system integrated visually and aurally into its space really does add to the pleasure and satisfaction of any system.
 
nathan_h

nathan_h

Audioholic
Any in wall system that has the back of the drivers firing into the wall space is not a good system on many counts.
I tend to agree with you. This is one reason I like triad so well.

Yet KEF and Revel measure well without them so it can be done, though in Revels case they want you to measure the wall cavity space and place the, in a particular place in relation to the top and bottom of the cavity for optimum performance. And they offer backer boxes as an add on.


But since they solve sbir, have higher output due to using the baffle of the wall face, etc, they are not just nice for decorators but are also what THX uses for theater design.

 
S

Sligg

Enthusiast
Now your other option to use those Klipsch speakers is to build them into a bookshelf.

This is our family room. I like this space. It has been snowing hard all day. That Denver storm went further north than predicted and into the Twin Cities Metro, and farther north than predicted. It travelled as far north as the Brainerd Lakes area. A little south of the metro they had a foot of snow. So I have been in front of the fire today listening to music. That system sounds very good. The shelving largely solves the flat wall problem.



I like it so much that I am currently designing a subwoofer to go into that space below the TV. It seems to be just asking for it to beef up the subwooferage.

The back panels in the equipment cabinet are easily removable to give access.

One caveat is that I design my own speakers and can tweek them to their environment. However, I have done this sort of thing enough to know that what you see here actually behaves very differently to a flat wall.

So there is plenty of opportunity to be creative with systems in the home environment. A system integrated visually and aurally into its space really does add to the pleasure and satisfaction of any system.
The last pic you have here with the white built-ins and speakers inside the specifically tall builtins to stick the speakers in , was what my original plan was and what I was asking about but you and others said it was a no no which brought me to the in-wall and down the bowers and wilkins path.

So this is or is not a No No?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
The last pic you have here with the white built-ins and speakers inside the specifically tall builtins to stick the speakers in , was what my original plan was and what I was asking about but you and others said it was a no no which brought me to the in-wall and down the bowers and wilkins path.

So this is or is not a No No?
I don't think our good friend TLS allows speakers in the house which he hasn't designed and built for specific purposes. :)
For example, his main Theater system are Transmission Lines he built for the Front 3. Same with the WAF Greatroom in-wall system. They utilize active XOs and he has the capability to custom tailor his BSC for those systems.
I'm sure he'll respond when he can, but I guarantee you there is more to those Speakers-in-cubbies than meets the eye. I'd put money down that they do not have a rear port or any conventional XO that does not allow him to tune it to the room.
(Don't let me down, Doc! ;) )

So again, @Sligg , it's a NO-NO.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
The last pic you have here with the white built-ins and speakers inside the specifically tall builtins to stick the speakers in , was what my original plan was and what I was asking about but you and others said it was a no no which brought me to the in-wall and down the bowers and wilkins path.

So this is or is not a No No?
He designed those from scratch specifically for the space.
 
S

Sligg

Enthusiast
makes sense... he has built everything else in his pictures :p
 
S

Sligg

Enthusiast
OK think I am going to do the Bowers and Wilkins in-wall speakers. going for the CWM7.3 S2. I will be splurging on these cant afford the CWM8.3 D or I would. Anyone have anything to say about mixing speaker brands? Thinking the B&W LCR and then Klipsch for surrounds/rears and possibly sub.

suggestions?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
OK think I am going to do the Bowers and Wilkins in-wall speakers. going for the CWM7.3 S2. I will be splurging on these cant afford the CWM8.3 D or I would. Anyone have anything to say about mixing speaker brands? Thinking the B&W LCR and then Klipsch for surrounds/rears and possibly sub.

suggestions?
I would not use a Klipsch sub. HSU have some very good value and excellent subs.

Mixing brands is not ideal, but not that bad either if the main use is for movies. I think you will be happy with the B & Ws
 
nathan_h

nathan_h

Audioholic
OK think I am going to do the Bowers and Wilkins in-wall speakers. going for the CWM7.3 S2. I will be splurging on these cant afford the CWM8.3 D or I would. Anyone have anything to say about mixing speaker brands? Thinking the B&W LCR and then Klipsch for surrounds/rears and possibly sub.

suggestions?
You can certainly do that, but note that Klipsch has a "house sound" and B&W have a "house sound" and they are polar opposites.

I understand being on a budget, for sure. I guess the question is: Have you heard either brand and loved it? If so, I would plan to go with whichever one you prefer. If that is the B&W maybe it means CI300 instead for the surrounds, or using their "in ceiling" speakers for the surrounds, to meet your budget, or starting with fewer than a complete system, etc.

It is not always bad to mix brands, but when the brands are significantly different, it begins to be less than ideal. Mixing B&W and Klipsch would fall into this category in my experience (I have owned both).

--

Don't get a klipsch sub. They are fine BUT not a great value.

Dollar for Dollar you'll get more and better bang from HSU, SVS, Rythmik, PSA and so on. And definitely get a ported sub. It's like getting free output. It's a no brainer choice unless you have several thousand dollars to spend on subs.
 
S

Sligg

Enthusiast
You can certainly do that, but note that Klipsch has a "house sound" and B&W have a "house sound" and they are polar opposites.

I understand being on a budget, for sure. I guess the question is: Have you heard either brand and loved it? If so, I would plan to go with whichever one you prefer. If that is the B&W maybe it means CI300 instead for the surrounds, or using their "in ceiling" speakers for the surrounds, to meet your budget, or starting with fewer than a complete system, etc.

It is not always bad to mix brands, but when the brands are significantly different, it begins to be less than ideal. Mixing B&W and Klipsch would fall into this category in my experience (I have owned both).

--

Don't get a klipsch sub. They are fine BUT not a great value.

Dollar for Dollar you'll get more and better bang from HSU, SVS, Rythmik, PSA and so on. And definitely get a ported sub. It's like getting free output. It's a no brainer choice unless you have several thousand dollars to spend on subs.
I like Klipsch. Have heard them but they do not have a 3way in wall speaker that I can find on their site. B&W I have heard a little bit but not as much as klipsch but they have a solid in wall thing going and 3 way speakers for the LCR which is another reason besides recommendation I was going with them.

also for subs I have looked at SVS and like them as well HSU I have heard and like as well. So both are still on the possibilities list
 
nathan_h

nathan_h

Audioholic
Fair enough. 3 way versus 2 way is not how I choose a speaker. Rather, I care about response, directivity, dispersion, and output. Sometimes a 2 way wins this war. Sometimes a 3 way.
 
S

Sligg

Enthusiast
Fair enough. 3 way versus 2 way is not how I choose a speaker. Rather, I care about response, directivity, dispersion, and output. Sometimes a 2 way wins this war. Sometimes a 3 way.
Hmmm well a lot are only 2 way... I just want to make sure I get decent mids is all. Sub will be there for lows so may be ok with that...

I just want to get it right the first time :p
 
S

Sligg

Enthusiast
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Sooo smurf in wall... and mock ups of what it will look like....

just gotta get a speaker decision made
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Those cabinets, below where your center channel will be, and beside your left and right, are going to cause problems. No different really than the problems we told you about before with putting floor speakers in cubbies.

You are creating an acoustic mess.

Get rid of that whole cabinet structure and you'll be fine, or don't recess the TV and speakers into that "nook-of-doom." Rather build it so the wall and the front of those cabinets are the same plane.
This is just simple physics and the way soundwaves work.
You can embrace it and work with it, or not. Your choice.

Usually fighting against physics is a losing proposition for most mere mortals. ;) You decide. Afterall, it is your system, your Ducats.
 
S

Sligg

Enthusiast
Will try and bring that wall more forward. Don’t know if I can get it flush will try. Sound waves will reflect off the cabinets as it is now...
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Yeah, that plan might work if you get rid of all the cabinets... you just can't put speakers into cubbies and expect it to sound very good.
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
I have been looking all night and all day through these... Bowers looks good but on the expensive side but... having a hard time finding any reviews on them in relation to some of the other brands. the 7.4 s2 which is more in my range @$799 does not have the box with it :/ $1000 essentially for a built in backer box that you get with the 7.3 s2 @$1800 or settle for a 2 way with the 7.5 s2 speakers @$799 with the chamber/port... hard to swing... and tough choice.

would use the cheaper klipsch speakers as surrounds.
Add triad speakers to your list .
I saw someone do this before wish I had saved pics, he said it sounded dreadful and bass was like overpowering.
She won’t let you just let you use regular speakers were they belong ? I barely noticed my tower speakers anymore off to sides of tv.
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So all this crazy tearing wall to shreds for in walls isn’t something I could do . And won’t plan on it , if you get in walls get something high quality.
In walls don’t hold a candle to traditional speakers. Speakers are the best looking things in my room.

[:oops::rolleyes:o_O:eek:

Pros / cons
In walls don’t always suck but take more audio expertise to place ,!!!
 
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