First time power amp buyer... now which receiver??

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
I’ve had a couple people say that but the majority of them say the paradigm 100s need more power than just the receiver.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Still, it would be more about the levels you'll drive them at, they appear to be reasonably sensitive but some low impedance demands at some frequencies in the bass range...which version Paradigm 100 do you have?
 
J

Jleis14

Junior Audioholic
Still, it would be more about the levels you'll drive them at, they appear to be reasonably sensitive but some low impedance demands at some frequencies in the bass range...which version Paradigm 100 do you have?
100v4


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Made me look: http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX4500H/NA/EN/WBSPSYvsbphziy.php

Can't say I've had an issue with "unsynced" LFE....
From your link:
Bass Sync
For contents recorded in multi-channel such as Blu-ray discs, the recorded low frequency effects (LFE) may be out of synch and delayed. This function corrects such a delay of low frequency effects (LFE).
0 ms – 16 ms (Default : 0 ms)

How low frequency effects (LFE) are delayed differ according to the disc. Set this to the desired value.
“Bass Sync” settings are stored for each input source.
This can be set when the LFE signal is included in the input signal.
This cannot be set when the sound mode is “Direct” or “Pure Direct”.
That first statement:
"For contents recorded in multi-channel such as Blu-ray discs, the recorded low frequency effects (LFE) may be out of synch and delayed."
Why? - Why would the LFE ever be recorded out of synch from the rest of the channels?
Of note, the LFE is only expected to be delayed, never ahead of the other channels!
I've never noticed, but I probably would have .
I gather it is our role to detect that the LFE is delayed and to manually correct, then remember to return to "no delay" after that song/disk is finished?
Honestly, it kind of sounds like a solution for a non-existent (or very obscure) problem, but I'm sure D&M knows something I don't!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
From your link:


That first statement:


Why? - Why would the LFE ever be recorded out of synch from the rest of the channels?
Of note, the LFE is only expected to be delayed, never ahead of the other channels!
I've never noticed, but I probably would have .
I gather it is our role to detect that the LFE is delayed and to manually correct, then remember to return to "no delay" after that song/disk is finished?
Honestly, it kind of sounds like a solution for a non-existent (or very obscure) problem, but I'm sure D&M knows something I don't!
Got me. Hopefully someone knows and will fill us in? @VMPS-TIII did you ever use that feature in your 4500?
 
J

Jleis14

Junior Audioholic
Don't waste money on a power amp... just use the Denon.
Guess I can just start with the receiver and if it’s good enough then no need for the amp.

But most guys who have said they owned the paradigms said the amp made a huge difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
But most guys who have said they owned the paradigms said the amp made a huge difference.
I have perceived an improvement in sound quality when I added an amp.
The problem is that when I removed the amp from my system to go back to the AVR, I did not perceive any loss of sound quality!
My conclusion was that when I just got my new amp all hooked up I was excited and totally expecting to hear a difference, so I did. This is called "expectation bias". We are not machines/instruments and our perception is easily influenced by expectations, mood, stuffed head, etc.
Also our audio memory is generally poor even with a 10 second delay.
The people who say this are being honest, they do believe they heard a difference, but unless you are pushing the amps beyond their limits, it is very unlikely that there is any audible difference, Amplifier design is a very mature science.
 
J

Jleis14

Junior Audioholic
I have perceived an improvement in sound quality when I added an amp.
The problem is that when I removed the amp from my system to go back to the AVR, I did not perceive any loss of sound quality!
My conclusion was that when I just got my new amp all hooked up I was excited and totally expecting to hear a difference, so I did. This is called "expectation bias". We are not machines/instruments and our perception is easily influenced by expectations, mood, stuffed head, etc.
Also our audio memory is generally poor even with a 10 second delay.
The people who say this are being honest, they do believe they heard a difference, but unless you are pushing the amps beyond their limits, it is very unlikely that there is any audible difference, Amplifier design is a very mature science.
Hmm good explanation and reasoning. I really wish I had a high end audio store in Cincinnati. Actually go in and listen to the equipment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Guess I can just start with the receiver and if it’s good enough then no need for the amp.

But most guys who have said they owned the paradigms said the amp made a huge difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
LOL its something you hear all the time, oh yeah the amp really made "x" speakers sing/shine/night and day difference and all that. Not an experience I've particularly had with several avrs and power amps and speakers....gives perhaps a bit more capability but that's usually about a bit more capability at higher levels or lower impedance (if the power amp is indeed also capable). I like the idea of seeing if the avr alone is an issue before going the external route. As far as going to a store to try and ascertain such a difference....meh.
 
J

Jleis14

Junior Audioholic
LOL its something you hear all the time, oh yeah the amp really made "x" speakers sing/shine/night and day difference and all that. Not an experience I've particularly had with several avrs and power amps and speakers....gives perhaps a bit more capability but that's usually about a bit more capability at higher levels or lower impedance (if the power amp is indeed also capable). I like the idea of seeing if the avr alone is an issue before going the external route. As far as going to a store to try and ascertain such a difference....meh.
I’ll give that a shot. Receiver first and then amp if necessary.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Hmm good explanation and reasoning. I really wish I had a high end audio store in Cincinnati. Actually go in and listen to the equipment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Crutchfield has a pretty liberal return policy for just that reason!
IIRC, they give you 60 days to decide. if you return, they charge something like a $20 restocking fee and they will pay return shipping and give you a refund less the $20 fee. To me, $20 to "make sure" before you buy is a bargain!
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
Guess I can just start with the receiver and if it’s good enough then no need for the amp.

But most guys who have said they owned the paradigms said the amp made a huge difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Huge difference? Maybe if they started with an inadequate receiver. Buy the right receiver and I don't think it would be a Huge difference.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
From your link:


That first statement:


Why? - Why would the LFE ever be recorded out of synch from the rest of the channels?
Of note, the LFE is only expected to be delayed, never ahead of the other channels!
I've never noticed, but I probably would have .
I gather it is our role to detect that the LFE is delayed and to manually correct, then remember to return to "no delay" after that song/disk is finished?
Honestly, it kind of sounds like a solution for a non-existent (or very obscure) problem, but I'm sure D&M knows something I don't!
Is this possibly something akin to the DSP Delay in many subwoofers? A redundant approach to setting Distance/Delay where the subwoofer is "twice the distance" away?
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Senior Audioholic
I have perceived an improvement in sound quality when I added an amp.
The problem is that when I removed the amp from my system to go back to the AVR, I did not perceive any loss of sound quality!
My conclusion was that when I just got my new amp all hooked up I was excited and totally expecting to hear a difference, so I did. This is called "expectation bias". We are not machines/instruments and our perception is easily influenced by expectations, mood, stuffed head, etc.
Also our audio memory is generally poor even with a 10 second delay.
The people who say this are being honest, they do believe they heard a difference, but unless you are pushing the amps beyond their limits, it is very unlikely that there is any audible difference, Amplifier design is a very mature science.
@KEW - I think it depends on if you are using ECO mode. I was running ECO mode as my 4500 and 4700 were running hot after a short session. ECO reduced heat but also cut amp power by 50%. I can hear the difference between using the Denon in ECO mode vs using the Monolith 7X external amp at moderate listening levels (70db+).

I purchased the AC Infinity AIRCOM T10 to fight the heat issue but I could hear it's fans even at the lowest setting so I returned it. I'm going to try the AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7 and see if it offers less noise.

Until Denon provides better cooling across its receiver line I see why an external amp might be a viable option for reducing heat. If you don't care about how hot the receiver gets then turn ECO OFF and use the internal amps. OR maybe you can find a fan setup that doesn't distract from the music/movie?
 
eljr

eljr

Audioholic Chief
Guess I can just start with the receiver and if it’s good enough then no need for the amp.

But most guys who have said they owned the paradigms said the amp made a huge difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If I had a list of bogus stuff people have told me in my lifetime it would go around the globe.

If you want to get into better hifi save up. Don't tinker down here.

peace!
 
J

Jleis14

Junior Audioholic
I decided to buy the Denon 4700 instead of the 4500. Figured that would be the newest technology and offer 125watts per channel. We will see how it turns out!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
@KEW - I think it depends on if you are using ECO mode. I was running ECO mode as my 4500 and 4700 were running hot after a short session. ECO reduced heat but also cut amp power by 50%. I can hear the difference between using the Denon in ECO mode vs using the Monolith 7X external amp at moderate listening levels (70db+).

I purchased the AC Infinity AIRCOM T10 to fight the heat issue but I could hear it's fans even at the lowest setting so I returned it. I'm going to try the AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7 and see if it offers less noise.

Until Denon provides better cooling across its receiver line I see why an external amp might be a viable option for reducing heat. If you don't care about how hot the receiver gets then turn ECO OFF and use the internal amps. OR maybe you can find a fan setup that doesn't distract from the music/movie?
Certainly if you have ECO in the on position and your speakers or listening levels are demanding, you could be running out of available juice. I wish Denon had incorporated an indicator to show if/when the power is being limited by the ECO setting! Of course you can listen for the click, if in the "Auto" position, but given the wide range of experience their customers have, I think it is a mistake to have an option to F up the sound (without a notification). Between this and the 4 vs 8 ohm switches on some units, it almost seems like AVR manufacturers want you to screw up the sound!

Of course, we are all a little different, but the S7 was the ticket for me! I suspect that the T10 is probably the loudest option with the exhaust pointed at you (not that it is "loud"). I have the rear-facing version of the T10. It was pretty quiet, but once in a blue moon, the sound of the fans turning on was a distraction. While I love the idea/sophistication of the thermostatic control system, I find the S7 set on low (always, as just a dumb fan) keeps my Denon cool and is never a distraction! I wish I could tell you that I absolutely cannot hear it, but when it is quiet at night and I make the effort to listen for it, it is audible. At the time I got/tested it, I decided that I would have to keep looking for the "perfect" solution, but at $20 I would keep it in play until the time I found a better solution. That was over 2 years ago and I am no longer looking for a better solution. What I have found is that, for me, the S7 is never a distraction. Typically, I cannot hear it if I listen for it because there is normally HVAC, refrigerator, air filter, or some other noise in my house that is not so quiet (although they are all quiet units). More importantly, it was the noise of the "start-up" of the fans that caused the thermostatic unit to be a distraction.

YMMV, but let us know how it works out for you!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Is this possibly something akin to the DSP Delay in many subwoofers? A redundant approach to setting Distance/Delay where the subwoofer is "twice the distance" away?
That was about the only prospect I could think of, but, even so, I can't imagine how the recording engineer would be so dense as to not know, or hear, the issue and fix it on the recording instead of me needing to use a feature (which 99% of amps do not have) to fix their screw-up!
OTOH, maybe many, many recordings have this issue. I am not sure I would /hear know a 8ms delay. Despite what people say about "articulate" subs, the attack of a sound when you are restricted to below 100Hz is pretty obscure (it is higher frequency aspects of the attack that give the attack it's impact). Having notes hang over by 8 ms is likely a bigger issue (aside from room resonances) relating to the perceived "tightness" of a sub.
I certainly suspect that I would hear a difference if I could A-B switch between an 8ms delay and an in-sync signal, and, I believe it would be a very good improvement.
I guess upon self-reflection, I am mostly just throwing a tantrum at the notion that the recording is liable to be wrong and I need to fix it! Pisses me off! :mad::D
 
Last edited:

newsletter
  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top