Finnish subwoofer shootouts

[brian32672]

if youve heard both personally and disagree then i would be more convinced of your posts.

sheep too

With the Sheep too, I would say it sounds like you are speaking for him. Anyhow, I can see no matter what I say, my posts will not convince you of anything. And that is the way it should be. I have no clue, I can not read, I am totally biased. So please disregard everything I post. Yes I am serious.

EDIT:: Now I just got this as a PM. I will edit out anything that will show identity. But IMO, it shows that there is a tad of bias.
I could care less on what speakers are good or bad. But I do like the fact that all speakers were tested the same way. And just by chance a particular speaker came out on bottom. Granted lets take in to account the problems (or so called problems) I posted before.

"You know darn well (EDIT) is watching me like a hawk on that thread. Isn't it enough Ilkka posted the link? You're not the one hanging - Ilkka is. He spends gobs of cash and time on great reviews, and gets slammed for it. (EDIT)'s reply was so negative, it doesn't matter what any of us say. It's (EDIT)'s show, and he'll run his party how he wants to. We may not agree with it (especially with that reply), but (EDIT) has a breaking point. EDIT, EDIT, EDIT, EDIT,. I don't think (EDIT) will do that to you.

I feel like I should email Ilkka and apologize for how members have treated him here. It's an embarrassment for someone as dedicated as he is."



Now this is me talking again. I don't see why anyone should be banned, or posts deleted, etc.. For showing a opinion. Granted, by all means it would not be a first for me. And normally, I am a very calm, easy going person.

 

[Ron Temple]

I haven't commented over on AVS where I post alot and I'm not going to. I don't know the underlying reasons, personalities or motivations. Don't really care. The whole issue is a mess, camps are being formed, sides taken and it doesn't want to stop. Way too much animosity, innuendo and insults. The datas there, accept it or disagree, take the rest offline.

 

[Sheep]

ep600 is the only one with surprisingly low numbers. so i assumed you were talking about it.

and i own neither sub so i have no bias towards either.
but do you honestly think a pb10 can outpreform an ep500 or 600?



just because methodology was incorrect for one test doesnt mean it was done wrong for every test. plis its not just methodology but choice of tests. gene stated there are a few done that are meaningless. not all. and he gave specific examples

i havent personally heard either one. not sure if you have or havent.. but im just making an assumption from everything ive read (other than this review) that if i did, i would easily be able to say the ep600 outpreforms the pb10.

if youve heard both personally and disagree then i would be more convinced of your posts.

sheep too

Why not? Why can't a sub like the PB-10 out perform the EP600? Until heard and measured, theres no evidence either way. Your judging purely from looks and specs. Just because the EP600 is a big tower with a 12inch driver doesn't mean its going to slaughter the PB-10. Its like saying a movies is going to suck before you watch it, just by looking at the movie poster.


Come on, I though you guys knew better then this...although I pre-judge some movies..

SheepStar

 

[gene]

Ikka;

Some of your measurements look a bit odd, particularly the data after the xover points which should appear like a brickwall filter but don't. The noise floor is higher than what we see in your measurements below 20Hz which can affect your THD measurements.

Examine my inroom and 4pi measurements of the EP500 and you will see the brickwall filter response which is an inherent design attribute of both the EP500 and EP600 subwoofers. Based on your graphs, I could only guess either something is up with your measurements or your sub is defective.


While the PB-10 is certainly an excellent performer (perhaps the best in its class), based on the laws (driver size, box volume, amplifier power) its a bit of a stretch to make a fair comparision between this sub and the EP600, let alone declare the former can outperform it in SPL or bandwidth linearity and extension.

 

[majorloser]

Ikka;

Some of your measurements look a bit odd, particularly the data after the xover points which should appear like a brickwall filter but don't. The noise floor is higher than what we see in your measurements below 20Hz which can affect your THD measurements.

Examine my inroom and 4pi measurements of the EP500 and you will see the brickwall filter response which is an inherent design attribute of both the EP500 and EP600 subwoofers. Based on your graphs, I could only guess either something is up with your measurements or your sub is defective.


While the PB-10 is certainly an excellent performer (perhaps the best in its class), based on the laws (driver size, box volume, amplifier power) its a bit of a stretch to make a fair comparision between this sub and the EP600, let alone declare the former can outperform it in SPL or bandwidth linearity and extension.

I quote Ilkka,

"There are some small problems with the amp/gain control (EP600), which are actually preventing me from doing proper listening tests. The amp has some sort of a mute circuit and here is an explanation from Ian Colquhoun (president of the Axiom) how it works.

“The mute circuit in the EP600 is controlled by an algorithm and works completely differently than an analog mute circuit. The circuit will mute a single tone or even broadband non dynamic noise at 90 dB by 10 dB if you put the SPL meter 12 inches in front of the sub-woofer and on the floor. It will not however, do this to a music signal at anywhere near this dB level. The DSP algorithm is effectively analyzing the wave form to accomplish this. There are enormous advantages to this over analog in that the sub is capable of muting noise and the dreaded 50 Hz (60 Hz here) hum at higher levels without muting the music signal. This eliminates the problem of the sub not ever going into mute because of noise or hum, and the inverse of not coming on when it should.”

As Ian explained, the mute circuit also mutes non dynamic broadband noise, which means it will also mute a calibration tone from say AVIA disc. And that it what it really does. That 90 dB at 12” translates pretty well to 85 dB at 2 meters in-room, so when the calibration tone is being played, the tone jumps up and down by 10 dB, since the subwoofer isn’t quite sure if he should mute it or not. So why not calibrate to 90 dB then? One could do it, but it really doesn’t help at all, since the signal jumps also with a normal music signal!

That’s right. I can hear and measure a clean 10-11 dB jump at a certain dB level (around 80-90 dB). And this level of course happens to be in the middle of the usual listening level, so it basically turns listening into an impossible mission. But as you read it should not happen with a dynamic music signal.

I have discussed with these problems with the Axiom and I am sending my unit back for a check. If it is proven that this gain problem affected on some of the measured data, I will of course measure the new unit as soon as possible, which means the spring shootout."


Both Ilkka and Ian admit there may have been a problem with the EP600 that was tested or the circuitry made this type of testing unreliable.

Just for argument, let's take the EP600 out of the tests since it may be flawed. The other data is still pretty interesting to say the least. Should we not commend Ilkka for his hard work?

 

[Ilkka]

Ikka;

Some of your measurements look a bit odd, particularly the data after the xover points which should appear like a brickwall filter but don't. The noise floor is higher than what we see in your measurements below 20Hz which can affect your THD measurements.

Examine my inroom and 4pi measurements of the EP500 and you will see the brickwall filter response which is an inherent design attribute of both the EP500 and EP600 subwoofers. Based on your graphs, I could only guess either something is up with your measurements or your sub is defective.

gene,

I know that both EP-600 and EP-500 have almost a brickwall filters, but they don't prevent THD, which becomes quite apparent at higher sweep levels. Also TrueRTA's Quick Sweep function isn't they best way to measure FR in a noisy environment like outside. It sort of lifts the backround noise to a higher level where it is. That's why there is so much output above the filters. I attached an inroom FR sweep using a 40 Hz LPF. As you can notice, there is not much output above the filter now, when the output level is lower and the backround noise is lower.

Another attachment contains several power compression sweeps from the shootout. The signal above XO point 100 Hz is purely THD. LMS systems which you use, uses filters so it only "listens" to a specific frequency, TrueRTA doesn't do it, so it will also show THD.

The real backround noise level during THD measurements was around 40 dB. So it didn't affect on the results. Here are the SpectraPro screens, the programs autocalculates THD and SPL level. It also shows he spectral distribution.

http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/axiom/20.png
http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/axiom/22.png
http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/axiom/25.png
http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/axiom/32.png
http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/axiom/40.png
http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/axiom/50.png
http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/axiom/63.png
http://personal.inet.fi/private/ilkka/axiom/80.png

As you can see, the fundamental and the main harmonics are way above the noise level.

While the PB-10 is certainly an excellent performer (perhaps the best in its class), based on the laws (driver size, box volume, amplifier power) its a bit of a stretch to make a fair comparision between this sub and the EP600, let alone declare the former can outperform it in SPL or bandwidth linearity and extension.

Why do you think this comparison wasn't fair? Especially for PB10?

I don't usually do any assumptions based on driver size, box volume, amp power, because basically they don't mean a thing. Big, powerful sub can easily perform worse than a smaller competitor. I tend to take another route. I measure the subwoofers and see how they will do. If we could just look at the specs and tell how they will perform, why would we need to measure them at all?

And just to comfirm what I just said. Would you believe that the PB10 can outperform the Velodyne DD-18 in max SPL around 20 Hz? I mean Velo has a 18" driver, many kW of power, bigger enclosure, servo technology, etc.

If you haven't still checked these tests, take a peak. And you'll understand what I mean.

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=50&rid=5915&SQ=1132004707

 

[Ilkka]

Both Ilkka and Ian admit there may have been a problem with the EP600 that was tested or the circuitry made this type of testing unreliable.

Just for argument, let's take the EP600 out of the tests since it may be flawed. The other data is still pretty interesting to say the least. Should we not commend Ilkka for his hard work?

The unit was tested by Axiom before it was sent to me and they said it worked 100% OK. They also provided me their own FR and power compression data and it matches with my data. I also know other users who also have had or still have this odd gain problem, so it is not just my unit.

Axiom hasn't provide me any THD data, so I can't compare them. But we are arranging another measurement with Ed Mullen and Craig Chase, where we will compare this unit to another unit, then we will know if the THD is correct. But until then I do believe this data is correct.

 

[silversurfer]

And just to comfirm what I just said. Would you believe that the PB10 can outperform the Velodyne DD-18 in max SPL around 20 Hz? I mean Velo has a 18" driver, many kW of power, bigger enclosure, servo technology, etc.

This is a twisting of reality to talk about max output of pb10 being more than a DD18 at 20Hz. Fictional because pb10 will start to compress and have audible port chuffing noises with just a 3" port playing a 20Hz tone, while the DD18 will remain subjectively extremely clean at 20Hz at all levels. Use your ears, and it will be obvious.

 

[Ilkka]

This is a twisting of reality to talk about max output of pb10 being more than a DD18 at 20Hz. Fictional because pb10 will start to compress and have audible port chuffing noises with just a 3" port playing a 20Hz tone, while the DD18 will remain subjectively extremely clean at 20Hz at all levels. Use your ears, and it will be obvious.

I was just quoting what the numbers say.

AV Talk measured 95 dB @ 20 Hz for the DD-18, Keith Yates has measured 93 dB.

Both Ed Mullen and myself have measured 98-99 dB @ 20 Hz for PB10. I admit that there will be some amount of port chuffing at those levels and it will start to compress there too. Of course, if output wouldn't compress, there would be no limits. But at 96-97 dB PB10 will be chuff free and also compression free. And it will still outperform a single DD-18. But of course when moving higher in frequency range, DD-18 will quickly outperform PB10.

 

[silversurfer]

I was just quoting what the numbers say.

AV Talk measured 95 dB @ 20 Hz for the DD-18, Keith Yates has measured 93 dB.

Both Ed Mullen and myself have measured 98-99 dB @ 20 Hz for PB10. I admit that there will be some amount of port chuffing at those levels and it will start to compress there too. Of course, if output wouldn't compress, there would be no limits. But at 96-97 dB PB10 will be chuff free and also compression free. And it will still outperform a single DD-18. But of course when moving higher in frequency range, DD-18 will quickly outperform PB10.

Well....Comparing raw data from one reviewer in AV Talk to another reviewer with different equipment and methods (ie. you) is not a good practice in the audio industry. You know that. I don't listen to numbers, I listen to speakers/subs.

The 3" port creates audible chuffing. This is a fact. This means that the DD18 will sound much better at 20Hz or any other frequency. Use your ears and it will be very obvious. If you didn't hear it, then you are indeed just listening to the numbers.

But of course when moving higher in frequency range, DD-18 will quickly outperform PB10.

If you were totally impartial, you would have mentioned that in your first statement. So on the whole, the DD18 out performs the PB10. You know there is very little information available at 20hz.

All of your comments regarding SVS are constant fawning. While they are good subwoofers, they are not without their flaws. Try a balanced approach, and you will be in less controversy.

 

[Ilkka]

Well....Comparing raw data from one reviewer in AV Talk to another reviewer with different equipment and methods (ie. you) is not a good practice in the audio industry. You know that. I don't listen to numbers, I listen to speakers/subs.

The 3" port creates audible chuffing. This is a fact. This means that the DD18 will sound much better at 20Hz or any other frequency. Use your ears and it will be very obvious. If you didn't hear it, then you are indeed just listening to the numbers.



If you were totally impartial, you would have mentioned that in your first statement. So on the whole, the DD18 out performs the PB10. You know there is very little information available at 20hz.

All of your comments regarding SVS are constant fawning. While they are good subwoofers, they are not without their flaws. Try a balanced approach, and you will be in less controversy.

You sound a lot like Craig Chase?

Maybe you should read my first statement again. I never said PB10 would sound better or out perform DD-18. I was merely quoting the numbers around 20 Hz.

 

[silversurfer]

Oh brother.....

......I was merely quoting the numbers around 20 Hz.

Exactly! Rather than look at the overall picture and telling the full story.

OK....is the DD18 better overall than the PB10 in your eyes/ears?

 

[Ilkka]

Oh brother.....


Exactly! Rather than look at the overall picture and telling the full story.

OK....is the DD18 better overall than the PB10 in your eyes/ears?

Of course it is. But of course we have to look at the price too. If I was after a good HT sub, I'd take 4 PB10's instead of one DD-18 and it would still be cheaper. But for more music only system DD-18 is a good choise.

 

[craigsub]

You sound a lot like Craig Chase?

Maybe you should read my first statement again. I never said PB10 would sound better or out perform DD-18. I was merely quoting the numbers around 20 Hz.

SilverSurfer and I are two different people, but he sure seems like a sensible guy.

 

[gene]

Glancing at the forum discussions on subwoofers here, and at other forums, it is clear to us there is a cult following of sub enthusiasts much like there was with cables until we debunked most of it over the past two years. We will be releasing a subwoofer measurement guide soon that will hopefully put much of this to rest (especially focusing on THD) and are writing it so anyone even with unsophisticated tools like TrueRTA can employ most of our test methodologies. Stay tuned...

 

[craigsub]

Glancing at the forum discussions on subwoofers here, and at other forums, it is clear to us there is a cult following of sub enthusiasts much like there was with cables until we debunked most of it over the past two years. We will be releasing a subwoofer measurement guide soon that will hopefully put much of this to rest (especially focusing on THD) and are writing it so anyone even with unsophisticated tools like TrueRTA can employ most of our test methodologies. Stay tuned...

Gene - This sounds really interesting.

 

[Ilkka]

Glancing at the forum discussions on subwoofers here, and at other forums, it is clear to us there is a cult following of sub enthusiasts much like there was with cables until we debunked most of it over the past two years. We will be releasing a subwoofer measurement guide soon that will hopefully put much of this to rest (especially focusing on THD) and are writing it so anyone even with unsophisticated tools like TrueRTA can employ most of our test methodologies. Stay tuned...

Be sure to send a copy to Velodyne, Paradigm and Adire Audio, just to name a few.

Although I do not share your opinions regarding THD, it will be a fun read.

 

[gene]

Be sure to send a copy to Velodyne, Paradigm and Adire Audio, just to name a few.

Although I do not share your opinions regarding THD, it will be a fun read.

We will have manufacturer input from as many of the major players that are interested. As for THD, I suggest reading up on the series of articles we did on human hearing perception as a starting point.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/roomacoustics/HumanHearing.php

Of course two years ago many people though audio cables suffered ill effect from strand jumping, but we all know better now don't we

I don't usually do any assumptions based on driver size, box volume, amp power, because basically they don't mean a thing.

That is an odd statement to say as these metrics do play a big part in determining bandwidth and max SPL. Its almost like saying RLC data has no relevance on cable performance

 

[silversurfer]

Of course it is. But of course we have to look at the price too. If I was after a good HT sub, I'd take 4 PB10's instead of one DD-18 and it would still be cheaper. But for more music only system DD-18 is a good choise.

Right..with four times the port noise too. But if that is what you prefer, that is great.

Remember, be balanced in your thoughts.

 

[silversurfer]

SilverSurfer and I are two different people, but he sure seems like a sensible guy.

Thanks. But I don't think one needs to be sensible to see the slant.