Finding best crossover points for 5.1 setup.

[Ed Lewis]

I have a Denon S910W receiver, left and right speakers are CF 70 energy, center is Klipsch C-250, surrounds are Klipsch S 41 II. Setup in room requires across room setup (speakers are facing long wall rather than short walls).
Audysey sets crossover for mains at 250, center at 150 and surrounds at 200.
Turning off Audysey completely I find I can get good sound by leaving center and surrounds at 90, but figuring out mains isn't easy. If I leave mains at 250 I get good resonance and everyone thinks it's fine but me. I'm the proverbial shoemaker!
The room is anything but good, I have a floor to ceiling bump out window at one end, a glass pocket door on the other end, and an archway on one of the side walls, so I'm working hard to find crossovers that will make these speakers sound reasonably worth their price. Anyone game to tackle this one?

 

[everettT]

The crossover points seem awful high, what sub are you using. I'd almost think the mic is defective. Set them all the fronts to 80, rears 120

 

[Ed Lewis]

Thanks EverettT, I wondered about the Mike but got same readings on two separate Mike's. My sub is a Energy S 10.

 

[everettT]

The higher the crossover the more localized the sub becomes. I think 80 should be just fine for your fronts.

 

[XEagleDriver]

Ed,
This sounds like a room/room treatment issue beyond Audyssey's ability to decipher and solve.
- A 250Hz crossover point for speakers as capable as Energy CF-70's towers with two 6.5" woofers is completely ridiculous.
- If so inclined, running a program like REW to get a visual image of the room's sonic signature (STS) may help you understand the challenges involved.

As a rule of thumb system performance is ~45% speakers, ~45% room, and ~10% everything else.

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

 

[Ed Lewis]

The higher the crossover the more localized the sub becomes. I think 80 should be just fine for your fronts.

Tnx again Everett, good to know.

 

[Ed Lewis]

Ed,
This sounds like a room/room treatment issue beyond Audyssey's ability to decipher and solve.
- A 250Hz crossover point for speakers as capable as Energy CF-70's towers with two 6.5" woofers is completely ridiculous.
- If so inclined, running a program like REW to get a visual image of the room's sonic signature (STS) may help you understand the challenges involved.

As a rule of thumb system performance is ~45% speakers, ~45% room, and ~10% everything else.

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

Thanks for replying. Room is definitely a problem, but all I have. Will look at REW and see if it offers suggestions I understand.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have a Denon S910W receiver, left and right speakers are CF 70 energy, center is Klipsch C-250, surrounds are Klipsch S 41 II. Setup in room requires across room setup (speakers are facing short wall rather than long walls).
Audysey sets crossover for mains at 250, center at 150 and surrounds at 200.
Turning off Audysey completely I find I can get good sound by leaving center and surrounds at 90, but figuring out mains isn't easy. If I leave mains at 250 I get good resonance and everyone thinks it's fine but me. I'm the proverbial shoemaker!
The room is anything but good, I have a floor to ceiling bump out window at one end, a glass pocket door on the other end, and an archway on one of the side walls, so I'm working hard to find crossovers that will make these speakers sound reasonably worth their price. Anyone game to tackle this one?

Something has gone badly adrift. Those mains seem capable. F3 is 34 Hz. The best rule of thumb is F3 + 50% for iniital crossover, so that get you 60 Hz near enough.

If the room is a problem I would run the mains full range, and just add in the sub at 60 Hz. There is always a setting to do this in the set up menu.

In fact if speakers are capable this is always my preferred set up and not a full crossover.

 

[lovinthehd]

I would like to hear details on how you held/ positioned Audyssey mic and how many mic positions used and where placed particularly before dismissal....

 

[Ed Lewis]

Something has gone badly adrift. Those mains seem capable. F3 is 34 Hz. The best rule of thumb is F3 + 50% for iniital crossover, so that get you 60 Hz near enough.

If the room is a problem I would run the mains full range, and just add in the sub at 60 Hz. There is always a setting to do this in the set up menu.

In fact if speakers are capable this is always my preferred set up and not a full crossover.

Thanks TLS Guy, I'll give that a try.

 

[Ed Lewis]

I would like to hear details on how you held/ positioned Audyssey mic and how many mic positions used and where placed particularly before dismissal....

I used 6 locations, Mic on tripod, ear level, maximum of 2 feet apart for all readings from "sweet spot".

 

[lovinthehd]

I used 6 locations, Mic on tripod, ear level, maximum of 2 feet apart for all readings from "sweet spot".

Sounds good in that respect, curious to see speaker/room pics....

 

[Ed Lewis]

View attachment 21227

u

nû

Sounds good in that respect, curious to see speaker/room pics....

Here are a couple of pics, I hope they answer ?

 

[Ed Lewis]

View attachment 21227 View attachment 21228 View attachment 21228 uView attachment 21228 View attachment 21228 View attachment 21228 nû Here are a couple of pics, I hope they answer ?

 

[TLS Guy]

View attachment 21227 View attachment 21228 View attachment 21228 uView attachment 21228 View attachment 21228 View attachment 21228 nû Here are a couple of pics, I hope they answer ?

Nothing out of the ordinary here.

Make sure all the woofers are working. Those speakers are 2.5. If one of the lower BSC woofers were out it would explain your result. Check all 4 carefully. You might even want to remove them and check all the DC resistances. As speakers frequently get shorted VC turns, which lowers DC resistance and impedance and lowers the output of a driver considerably. It also stresses the amps.

Unless your Audyssey is faulty, you should not have got the results you did. I am really suspicious of a speaker driver failure.

 

[Ed Lewis]

Nothing out of the ordinary here.

Make sure all the woofers are working. Those speakers are 2.5. If one of the lower BSC woofers were out it would explain your result. Check all 4 carefully. You might even want to remove them and check all the DC resistances. As speakers frequently get shorted VC turns, which lowers DC resistance and impedance and lowers the output of a driver considerably. It also stresses the amps.

Unless your Audyssey is faulty, you should not have got the results you did. I am really suspicious of a speaker driver failure.

Thanks TLS Guy! I'm 86, AF retired back in 68. Was with Raytheon for 17 years, and am still a ham operator, but no longer have my own station. Try to keep up with electronic music but I think I'm falling behind more rapidly than keeping pace. Really enjoy audioholics. Thanks for your input

 

[lovinthehd]

Also see nothing particular about the photos Maybe I'd move the center to the edge of the cabinet but still an odd measurement. Might simply try it again. All speakers are wired in phase?

 

[Ed Lewis]

Also see nothing particular about the photos Maybe I'd move the center to the edge of the cabinet but still an odd measurement. Might simply try it again. All speakers are wired in phase?

Aren't the front speakers supposed to be equidistant from the listening position? If I move the center to the edge it will be 10 inches closer than the left and right. All speakers are in phase. The system is already showing improvement since changing the crossover of the mains to 80 and the surrounds to 120.
The room used to be a garage so cement floors and walls are still prominent, with tile covering. Dynamic range is a problem since I cant get the soft and loud sections both within one volume setting. I have the speakers balanced with an SPL meter at 75 dB. maybe i will have to raise that to 80 or higher to make my classical music work well.
Tnx for your feedback.

 

[Ed Lewis]

Aren't the front speakers supposed to be equidistant from the listening position? If I move the center to the edge it will be 10 inches closer than the left and right. All speakers are in phase. The system is already showing improvement since changing the crossover of the mains to 80 and the surrounds to 120.
The room used to be a garage so cement floors and walls are still prominent, with tile covering. Dynamic range is a problem since I cant get the soft and loud sections both within one volume setting. I have the speakers balanced with an SPL meter at 75 dB. maybe i will have to raise that to 80 or higher to make my classical music work well.
Tnx for your feedback.

 

[lovinthehd]

Aren't the front speakers supposed to be equidistant from the listening position? If I move the center to the edge it will be 10 inches closer than the left and right. All speakers are in phase. The system is already showing improvement since changing the crossover of the mains to 80 and the surrounds to 120.
The room used to be a garage so cement floors and walls are still prominent, with tile covering. Dynamic range is a problem since I cant get the soft and loud sections both within one volume setting. I have the speakers balanced with an SPL meter at 75 dB. maybe i will have to raise that to 80 or higher to make my classical music work well.
Tnx for your feedback.

General stereo recommendation is L/R speakers in an equidistant triangle with your listening position. When running Audyssey it would accommodate differences in delays/levels with L/R/C speakers. Lots of reflection could be part of the issue. Floor coverings and furnishings can go a long ways....

Not sure what your trouble with loud/soft sections is particularly, can you describe that in more detail?