Finally upgrading to 4K. Yamaha at a massive discount or Anthem at full price?

[speakerman39]

After reading a bit, I'm leaning toward investing in Dirac with my current setup and learning how to use that even before I upgrade my AVR to another AVR or Pre/pro/amp setup. (I'm thinking Dirac, rather than REW, as it seems the learning curve is a bit easier; I don't mind paying extra for ease of use.) Would this product (https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-24) be comparable to the one you suggested, but just with Dirac added? And do I really need to go all out on the ddrc-88bm to be able to run Dirac for an entire surround sound system? Can't figure out what the advantages might be for either. Thanks, guys! (Also, see my above post for additional thanks. )

Either way you will still need to measure your frequency response in your room. REW is a means to do that w/a UMiK 1. DIRAC and a miniDSP is a way to correct the response to make it as flat as possible at your MLP. If you don't want to mess with REW, then I would consider this measuring software:

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-omnimic-v2-computer-based-precision-room-measurement-system--390-792


Once again frequencies below 200 Hz is typically the most problematic. If you want something that can equalize automatically below 200Hz, then perhaps consider this:

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/anti-mode-8033s-ii

You can save money and get just as good as, if not better, results using the REW/miniDSP combo if done correctly. Proper placement of subs and some room treatments can also help to reduce dips and peaks in your frequency response. The goal is to get things (frequency response) as flat as possible at the MLP(s).


Cheers,

Phil

 

[TechHDS]

@speakerman39 and @PENG, thanks for your help on the DSP thing. It seems I have a lot more to learn... I've just been using the Audyssey mic on my Integra DTR 40.1 for the past several years, and I'm assuming this is the "next level" of calibration. Are you guys suggesting I go with this type of thing vs Audyssey (or whatever Yamaha uses or ARC from Anthem) no matter which receiver or pre-pro setup I go with? And is this different from Dirac (I'm seeing a lot about that on these forums over the past few days and am kinda lost with all the options.)? I do like to push buttons and such, but I don't want to get into something that's too technical for my level of knowledge, which is pretty basic.

Right now, I just have a 5.1 setup. I could easily add speakers for a 7.1 setup, as I've got a long table about 6 feet behind my couch. I'm renting, so I can't do any ceiling mounting for now. Hence, sticking with 5.1 (or maybe 7.1) for now with the option of adding more speakers later. My current speakers are OLD. Infinity RS-625's for the mains, RS-325's for the rears, and an RS Video for the center. RS 10 for the sub. It's modest, but it gets the job done for now, as I can't shake the walls with apartment living.

Not sure if I can get one at a discount, but I can check...

And while we're on the topic of my current speakers (I'll upgrade them in a couple years), I'm wondering what specs I should be looking for with regards to power. Reading on these forums the past few days, I've seen several articles regarding ohms/watts, etc., but I guess I'm just not getting it. If anyone would be able to help me out in that arena, I'd be grateful. Here are my speaker specs:

RS-625s (1 tweeter, 1x8" woofer, 2x8" bass radiators):
Nominal impedance: 6 ohm
Power rating: 25-200 watts RMS into 6 ohms
Sensitivity: 92 dB @ 2.8V, 1 meter
Crossover Frequencie: 2800Hz
Frequency Response: 40Hz-25kHz +/-3dB

RS-325s (1 tweeter, 1 6.5" woofer)
RS-325
SPECIFICATIONS
Nominal Impedance: 6 ohm
Power Rating: 20-150 watts RMS into 6 Ohms
Sensitivity: 92 dB @2.8V, 1 meter
Crossover Frequencie: 3300Hz
Frequency Response: 65Hz-25kHz +/-3dB

Hey Bro, I’m 60 years old been in this hobby since 68 and still learning about this hobby. These guys in here are about the best you can find on the net. Gene, M-Code, PENG, and a few others eat transistors and resistors for breakfast I think.

 

[Happygodavid]

Ok folks. After obsessing over this for a few weeks, I went ahead and got something completely different (of course). Went with the Marantz SR6013 after hearing it next to a Yamaha 2070; I just preferred the sound. Got my friend's discount (around $900),and it should be here within the week. I'm pondering upgrading to a Marantz 7705 when it comes out in October and adding an amp (Rotel or Emo) and possibly getting a miniDSP with Dirac (I'm sure I'll make another post at that point or before). I just needed something now so I don't have to deal with using my tv for inputs and sending audio to the Integra via optical. Anyways, for anyone in this thread who happens to check back, thanks a ton for all your guys' help! I've learned a ton, and now I've got a better idea of my long term game plan.

Edit: Also, if anyone's interested, the SR6012 is on clearance at a lot of places. No UI output to tv when running 4k, but if that's not an issue, it could be a good choice for anyone looking for a good deal right now.

 

[everettT]

Ok folks. After obsessing over this for a few weeks, I went ahead and got something completely different (of course). Went with the Marantz SR6013 after hearing it next to a Yamaha 2070; I just preferred the sound. Got my friend's discount (around $900),and it should be here within the week. I'm pondering upgrading to a Marantz 7705 when it comes out in October and adding an amp (Rotel or Emo) and possibly getting a miniDSP with Dirac (I'm sure I'll make another post at that point or before). I just needed something now so I don't have to deal with using my tv for inputs and sending audio to the Integra via optical. Anyways, for anyone in this thread who happens to check back, thanks a ton for all your guys' help! I've learned a ton, and now I've got a better idea of my long term game plan.

Edit: Also, if anyone's interested, the SR6012 is on clearance at a lot of places. No UI output to tv when running 4k, but if that's not an issue, it could be a good choice for anyone looking for a good deal right now.

Dont forget amps like the Monoprice Monolith, qsc cinema series, crown, outlaw etc. Unless you want a matching amp, there are better values out there. Enjoy the new AVR, and dont forget to go to the Audyessey thread over at AVS for the extensive setup guide.

 

[PENG]

Ok folks. After obsessing over this for a few weeks, I went ahead and got something completely different (of course). Went with the Marantz SR6013 after hearing it next to a Yamaha 2070; I just preferred the sound. Got my friend's discount (around $900),and it should be here within the week. I'm pondering upgrading to a Marantz 7705 when it comes out in October and adding an amp (Rotel or Emo) and possibly getting a miniDSP with Dirac (I'm sure I'll make another post at that point or before). I just needed something now so I don't have to deal with using my tv for inputs and sending audio to the Integra via optical. Anyways, for anyone in this thread who happens to check back, thanks a ton for all your guys' help! I've learned a ton, and now I've got a better idea of my long term game plan.

Edit: Also, if anyone's interested, the SR6012 is on clearance at a lot of places. No UI output to tv when running 4k, but if that's not an issue, it could be a good choice for anyone looking for a good deal right now.

$900 for the SR6013 is a great price, it is half a notch below the Denon but then it is a current model and there won't likely be any audibly difference in sq. It will be much easier for you to sell and potentially get more than you pay for when you are ready to grab the 7705. Good move!

 

[PENG]

Dont forget amps like the Monoprice Monolith, qsc cinema series, crown, outlaw etc. Unless you want a matching amp, there are better values out there. Enjoy the new AVR, and dont forget to go to the Audyessey thread over at AVS for the extensive setup guide.

Agreed, they are really unbeatable in VA/$, the only negative is the heavy weight.

 

[snakeeyes]

Ok folks. After obsessing over this for a few weeks, I went ahead and got something completely different (of course). Went with the Marantz SR6013 after hearing it next to a Yamaha 2070; I just preferred the sound. Got my friend's discount (around $900),and it should be here within the week. I'm pondering upgrading to a Marantz 7705 when it comes out in October and adding an amp (Rotel or Emo) and possibly getting a miniDSP with Dirac (I'm sure I'll make another post at that point or before). I just needed something now so I don't have to deal with using my tv for inputs and sending audio to the Integra via optical. Anyways, for anyone in this thread who happens to check back, thanks a ton for all your guys' help! I've learned a ton, and now I've got a better idea of my long term game plan.

Edit: Also, if anyone's interested, the SR6012 is on clearance at a lot of places. No UI output to tv when running 4k, but if that's not an issue, it could be a good choice for anyone looking for a good deal right now.

What an awesome friend!

What speakers were you using in your demo?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

\the only negative is the heavy weight.

We must be getting old.

You remember the times when guys were bragging about how heavy their amps were?

These days I want my amps to weight about 10 lbs.

Simple. Clean. Light. Cool. Reliable.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

$900 for the SR6013 is a great price

Pretty good. Amazon Prime is selling the Marantz 6012 brand new for $899.

 

[PENG]

Pretty good. Amazon Prime is selling the Marantz 6012 brand new for $899.

Exactly, since when did we see blow out price at launch time!!

 

[PENG]

We must be getting old.

You remember the times when guys were bragging about how heavy their amps were?

These days I want my amps to weight about 10 lbs.

Simple. Clean. Light. Cool. Reliable.

I have a Bryston 4B SST and a Parasound Halo A21, and I know the Halo weighs 10 lbs more and less powerful. I also know it is not because the Halo has a larger VA transformer. You will know the real reasons if you google for their pictures. So much for weight means more "real" power..

 

[Happygodavid]

What an awesome friend!

What speakers were you using in your demo?

Yeah he is!

Swapped between several Deftek, B&W, and ML models. The low end B&Ws sounded closest to what I’ve got (ancient Infinity RS 625s), not exactly, but close enough. Definitely gonna have to do more auditioning when I upgrade my speakers in a couple years.


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[Happygodavid]

We must be getting old.

You remember the times when guys were bragging about how heavy their amps were?

These days I want my amps to weight about 10 lbs.

Simple. Clean. Light. Cool. Reliable.

Ha! Yeah, I was looking at a Rotel 1585, and that thing weighs 90 freaking lbs!! More than my tv!!


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[Happygodavid]

Ok, so I finally got the 6013 set up last night, ran Audyssey, and here are some initial thoughts.
First, Audyssey 32XT (or whatever it’s called) is more robust than the old version of Audyssey.
Secondly, the setup walkthrough on the Marantz was great.
The remote pales in comparison to the Integra remote. I have to point it directly at the unit to get it to work. The Integra just worked not matter where I pointed it.
As of now, the Marantz just doesn’t sound as warm, and the bass response isn’t as tight with music, tho to my ears, the theater sound may have a slight edge over the Integra. I still have to do some tweaking, messing around with speaker size, crossover points, etc., tho, so the jury is still out.


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[PENG]

As of now, the Marantz just doesn’t sound as warm, and the bass response isn’t as tight with music, tho to my ears, the theater sound may have a slight edge over the Integra. I still have to do some tweaking, messing around with speaker size, crossover points, etc., tho, so the jury is still out.


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Since you mentioned speaker size and crossover points, I assume you have subwoofers. Marantz most likely has set your speakers to large so you may be getting some bass cancellation between themselves and the subwoofers. To get the warmer sound and tighter bass, you do have to mess around with the crossover points and should set all speakers to "small". I know your speakers are not really small, bu to minimize the chance of bass cancellation, it is better to set them to small and start with crossover of 80 Hz. Then try 90 Hz, and up to 100 Hz for the center and see which sounds best to you. You can also try 60 Hz but I wouldn't go lower than that.

After that, you may try manually increasing the subwoofer level by 2 to 3 dB to "warm" things up a little more.

What is you room size and sitting distance, and do you listen to reference level? Your speakers are rated 6 ohm nominal, that usually indicate they should be considered 4 ohm speakers.

If you have REW and the Umik-1 mic, then you can also use the Editor App (US$20) to fine tune things to your liking.

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/acoustic-measurements/umik-1-setup-with-rew

If not, you can still use the Editor App, but it will be more hit and miss as you will be going by ears.

 

[Happygodavid]

Since you mentioned speaker size and crossover points, I assume you have subwoofers. Marantz most likely has set your speakers to large so you may be getting some bass cancellation between themselves and the subwoofers. To get the warmer sound and tighter bass, you do have to mess around with the crossover points and should set all speakers to "small". I know your speakers are not really small, bu to minimize the chance of bass cancellation, it is better to set them to small and start with crossover of 80 Hz. Then try 90 Hz, and up to 100 Hz for the center and see which sounds best to you. You can also try 60 Hz but I wouldn't go lower than that.

After that, you may try manually increasing the subwoofer level by 2 to 3 dB to "warm" things up a little more.

What is you room size and sitting distance, and do you listen to reference level? Your speakers are rated 6 ohm nominal, that usually indicate they should be considered 4 ohm speakers.

If you have REW and the Umik-1 mic, then you can also use the Editor App (US$20) to fine tune things to your liking.

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/acoustic-measurements/umik-1-setup-with-rew

If not, you can still use the Editor App, but it will be more hit and miss as you will be going by ears.

Thx for the suggestions. I’ll you around with the crossover settings more as the week goes on. Probably won’t have a ton of time til the weekend. I did notice last night that I liked the 250 Hz setting the most (the highest it would go for the mains, but I didn’t mess with the sub volume much). I’ve read a little on here about crossover points, changing sub volume, sub crossover point, etc, but I’m figuring out that it’s all gonna be just a matter of tweaking and experimenting. I don’t have REW yet, but I’ll definitely consider it after messing around with what I’ve got for a bit! Also, I definitely need to do the whole sub crawl thing and mess around with sub placement.
As for room shape, it’s an open living room/kitchen/small dining area. Big sectional sofa and coffee table. Not ideal, but probably the best room I’ve had for a HT. I’ve actually got about 5 ft behind my couch!
Oh, and my sitting distance is about 10-11 ft.
Thanks for your help, @PENG!


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[PENG]

I did notice last night that I liked the 250 Hz setting the most (the highest it would go for the mains, but I didn’t mess with the sub volume much).

That can make the bass sound good but it will become "localized" so especially for music, it is not a good idea as it will mess up sound stage/imaging for sure. Probably shouldn't go higher than 100 to120 Hz depending on the FR characteristics of your sub(s).

I’ve read a little on here about crossover points, changing sub volume, sub crossover point, etc, but I’m figuring out that it’s all gonna be just a matter of tweaking and experimenting. I don’t have REW yet, but I’ll definitely consider it after messing around with what I’ve got for a bit! Also, I definitely need to do the whole sub crawl thing and mess around with sub placement.

Leave the subwoofer volume dial alone!! You can change the subwoofer level at the AVR and you can always go back to the original values Audyssey/Marantz set up, so for experimentation purposes, it is the better way.

As for room shape, it’s an open living room/kitchen/small dining area. Big sectional sofa and coffee table. Not ideal, but probably the best room I’ve had for a HT. I’ve actually got about 5 ft behind my couch!
Oh, and my sitting distance is about 10-11 ft.

You can figure things out with an online calculator such as http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html.

I did one scenario for you, based on the specs of your RS-625:
Sensitivity: 90.75 dB 1W/1M (adjusted from the specified 92 dB/2.83V/1M, and 6 ohms nominal impedance to 1W/1M 4 ohms nominal to be on the conservative side)

Distance: 11 ft

Placement: near a wall (2-4 ft)

No. of speakers: 2

You can hit 105 dB SPL (that's for 2 speakers) at listening position with 75 W, so you do have at least 3 dB of headroom even during the 105 dB peak moments, but it is a good idea to put a fan on top.

 

[Happygodavid]

That can make the bass sound good but it will become "localized" so especially for music, it is not a good idea as it will mess up sound stage/imaging for sure. Probably shouldn't go higher than 100 to120 Hz depending on the FR characteristics of your sub(s).

Leave the subwoofer volume dial alone!! .

Will do! Thanks for the tips.

I'm still getting used to this thing. So far, and I'm surprised by this, but I feel like the 2018 Marantz's UI is clunkier than my 2009 Integra's. It just seems as though the menus aren't laid out as well, settings are buried, the UI is slow to react, etc. Maybe I just need to get used to it more, but so far, I'm not a fan. :/ So much so that I'm considering returning it and starting over or just saying screw it and getting a Yamaha 2080 or 3080. But that may just be because I didn't sleep much last night... Man, I miss the days of HT being simpler. Before I do that, though... anyone here know how to get the 6013 to turn on/off the LG C8? What settings am I missing or screwing up?

 

[Bookmark]

You probably want the Section Connections/Connecting a TV ~Page 65 or Settings/Hdmi Setup ~Page 174. I am saying approx because this is from my 6012 manual and there may have been some changes, but the headings are likely the same.

I too think the Marantz Menu can be slow to respond. However most of my problems is the amp is low down and off to the left so the sensor can get partially obscured by the Volume knob.

 

[Happygodavid]

You probably want the Section Connections/Connecting a TV ~Page 65 or Settings/Hdmi Setup ~Page 174.

Thanks! I'll check it out when I've got some time this wkend.