Finally time to replace my processor, need one without constant annoyances

[GIEGAR]

Well, duh, of course, my AVP sounds better because it retailed $7,500.

My $5,500 AVR-5308 also sounds better than any $4K pre-pro.

I've wondered why you have both of those beasts ADTG.

Just because you can?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've wondered why you have both of those beasts ADTG.

Just because you can?

I was imprudent.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Nope.

But you are asking the wrong question.

The real questions to ask:
Do you think $2K separates will be more robust and more reliable than a $1K AVR?
Do you think you will have a $1K AMP for 15+ years? How about a $1K AVR for 15+ years?
Is it worth a repair on a $2K separate? Is it worth a repair for a $1K AVR?

The real advantages of separates is better components and often more power in reserve, and amps are a proven investment in power for the long haul. Receiver reliability can be a concern.

No. I don't think $2K pre-pro are necessarily more reliable than $1K AVR.

No, I don't think either one is worth repairing.

I have a 20 year old $500 Kenwood AVR that gave my brother that still works. The 12 yr old $500 HK AVR I gave my brother still works.

And power reserve is moot when you use external amps with the AVR.

I've seen people complain about their 1 year old pre-pro separates malfunctioning.

 

[TLS Guy]

Do you think $2K separates sound better than $1K AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha?

If you include the power amps absolutely. Five or more power amps in the same case as processors and high gain circuits is a bad idea.
To avoid heat the amps have to be biased far too far towards class B. We all know what happened when Onkyo tried to include amps biased more to class A. They were cookers and blew up too often.

However I have not had a chance to bench test a higher end receiver. I have a hunch though that low level signal test would unmask the problem. In addition I would really like to see if the headroom at the preouts is as good as the headroom at the output of my pre/pro.

As I mentioned the connectivity options are much greater on a pre/pro than a receiver which is a big point in their favor.

We are not necessarily talking 2K comparison here either. My amp case is worth a lot more than 2K.

 

[PENG]

To avoid heat the amps have to be biased far too far towards class B. We all know what happened when Onkyo tried to include amps biased more to class A. They were cookers and blew up too often.

Bias more towards class A would add little heat, nothing compared to true class A bias. I think Onkyo got so hot in those days due to the use of earlier generations of high end Silicon Optix video processors.

However I have not had a chance to bench test a higher end receiver. I have a hunch though that low level signal test would unmask the problem. In addition I would really like to see if the headroom at the preouts is as good as the headroom at the output of my pre/pro.

There are bench tests out there that show many AVRs could actually perform better than some separates. I was please to see the lab measurements of my 10 years old Denon AVR-3805 that is now paired with a Parasound A21 for critical listening.

I posted this link http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/index.html a couple times before but not sure if you had pay it a visit yet, you can view their 2003/4 lab tests (my 3805 is in there) but to view the newer ones you have to register, and the data are protected so they cannot be posted. The Denon AVR-3808's had low distortion even at low levels, and their preouts were tested to produce >18V max rms so no worry there either. I am sure that particular model was an exception but it just show they could do it if their maker wanted them to.

I guess lab bench tests by HTM, HCC, S&V won't meet your standard but I suspect those from this British site (link above) and some of Gene's right on this site may, or at least meet you half way. You can't expect them to test everything but I think the AVtech has enough data for you compare separates and AVRs tested under the same conditions and methodologies.

As I mentioned the connectivity options are much greater on a pre/pro than a receiver which is a big point in their favor.

Not from what I have seen so far, especially if we ignore balanced I/O's, a 2K separate pair most likely (Emo could again be one exception) won't provide balanced I/O anyway.

We are not necessarily talking 2K comparison here either. My amp case is worth a lot more than 2K.

Now we can finally fully agree on one!. I will take a newly superseded 1K AVR such as the AVR-X4000, AVR-4520, RX-A2010, AV-6004 before I take a pair of 2K separates, if such thing can even be found.

Aside from Emo, who do you think offer multichannel separates that we can trust, in terms of reliability, feature, and sound quality? I can think of none, but there are good deals of AVRs out there at any given time due to manufacturer's ability to take advantage of the principle of economy of scale and the regular clearance sales of superseded models. You won't find that in separates very often, try to find your AV-8003 and my AV-8801 for under 2K, or even my older AV-7005 for under 1K and you will agree with me. Those are just prepros, you still have to buy a 5 or 7 channel amp.

My next upgrade will be a Denon or Marantz AVR, definitely not separates, been there, done that, and ready to move on with technology.

 

[PENG]

but I love amps.
- Rich

Obviously, don't forget why many of us are here, Gene picked the right name for his company.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you include the power amps absolutely. Five or more power amps in the same case as processors and high gain circuits is a bad idea.
To avoid heat the amps have to be biased far too far towards class B. We all know what happened when Onkyo tried to include amps biased more to class A. They were cookers and blew up too often.

However I have not had a chance to bench test a higher end receiver. I have a hunch though that low level signal test would unmask the problem. In addition I would really like to see if the headroom at the preouts is as good as the headroom at the output of my pre/pro.

As I mentioned the connectivity options are much greater on a pre/pro than a receiver which is a big point in their favor.

We are not necessarily talking 2K comparison here either. My amp case is worth a lot more than 2K.

Wow, so just adding a few amps inside the case automatically makes the sound worse? That seems almost like what high-end dealers tell their customers.

I was going to try to say what PENG said, but he did a much better job.

I have posted many numbers of AVR compared to pre-pros, and a lot of AVRs have better numbers or at least just as good. You can look at the Audioholics measurements of AVRs and see for yourself. There are higher-end pre-pros with better numbers, but most people would agree the difference is inaudible. IOW, you can't seriously hear the difference between a SNR of -130dB vs -100dB, a Crosstalk of -120dB vs -80dB, etc.

Of course, some proponents of pre-pros say that measurement of electronics don't mean anything. Even if the AVR have the same numbers or better, pre-pros still sound better because they just don't have the amps inside them.

In terms of connectivity, the only difference is that most pre-pros offer UNBALANCED XLR connectors. Is this what you are talking about in terms of "greater options" in connectivity? What other greater options in connectivity are there?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Obviously, don't forget why many of us are here, Gene picked the right name for is company.

Yeah, I currently have 5 external amps in use. That's after I sold a few.

 

[itschris]

Interesting. But wouldn't it be kinda... wasteful to pair a receiver with an amp? I'm not sure if spending that kind of money on a straight-up processor would net me better quality components, like the DAC, for example.

That's what I do. I have my beloved Sunfire Cinema Grand hooked to my Pioneer Elite receiver. My only complaint is that just after I got my Pio is when all the stuff changed to cool graphic menus and what not. Mine are text based. Other than that, nothing to lose. You have also a lot of extra power channels to fiddle with.

 

[itschris]

I've also been considering that Outlaw processor on the site banner. For <$600 it's worth a try to see how it performs. I've been debating forever on getting the Integra. I think that's the way to go. But $600, that's almost disposable after a couple of years.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've also been considering that Outlaw processor on the site banner. For <$600 it's worth a try to see how it performs. I've been debating forever on getting the Integra. I think that's the way to go. But $600, that's almost disposable after a couple of years.

For guys who don't care for any other features (like sub EQ and Dynamic EQ), I think the $550 Outlaw pre-pro will sound as good as any $2K pre-pro on the market.

Of course, I got my Denon 3312 for $550 and I think it sounds as good as any $2K pre-pro on the market too.

 

[j_garcia]

The Outlaw says it has sub EQ, though I don't know if that is manual or automatic. It lacks some other minor things, but still has legacy video connections, and is less expensive than the Emotiva. I don't have any analog video sources anymore so I went with the Emotiva.

 

[itschris]

For 6 bills it's certaintly worth entertaining. I am looking to make a major upgrade here shortly though. I'm going to see how the new Integra DHC-80.6 shakes out. That looks like it pretty much has everything you can ask for. I keep debating in my head. We'll see.