fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord Feb 13, 2012 9,103 0 113 42.3464° N, 71.0975° W Nov 4, 2014 #21 darien87 said: Huh? So if I turn on my stand alone amp but don't connect any speakers to it, it isn't drawing power????? You logic seems kinda flawed there dude. I only have experience with using one Yamaha receiver as a pre/pro but there was a REMARKABLE difference between it and my first processor as far as background noise. Granted this was about 10 years ago. Now if newer, higher quality receivers can put out as clean a signal as a pre-pro then fine but I still don't see the point in paying for amps that I'm not using. Click to expand... I haven't had any issues with noise between receivers and processors. As far as power draw, amps, processors, and receivers will all idle and draw power. If we're talking about newer models (the only ones I have experience with) then the amp section, IME, isn't drawing a ton of power, at least compared to the rest of the unit. If the unit has a class D amp inside, it won't draw a ton of power just sitting there, and if it's class A/B it just depends on the company. From what I understand, Yamaha puts in a pretty robust amp section ie it will deliver enough current for 4ohm and below loads. This means more storage capacitance, probably shying more towards the A than the B, which all points to higher idling.
darien87 said: Huh? So if I turn on my stand alone amp but don't connect any speakers to it, it isn't drawing power????? You logic seems kinda flawed there dude. I only have experience with using one Yamaha receiver as a pre/pro but there was a REMARKABLE difference between it and my first processor as far as background noise. Granted this was about 10 years ago. Now if newer, higher quality receivers can put out as clean a signal as a pre-pro then fine but I still don't see the point in paying for amps that I'm not using. Click to expand... I haven't had any issues with noise between receivers and processors. As far as power draw, amps, processors, and receivers will all idle and draw power. If we're talking about newer models (the only ones I have experience with) then the amp section, IME, isn't drawing a ton of power, at least compared to the rest of the unit. If the unit has a class D amp inside, it won't draw a ton of power just sitting there, and if it's class A/B it just depends on the company. From what I understand, Yamaha puts in a pretty robust amp section ie it will deliver enough current for 4ohm and below loads. This means more storage capacitance, probably shying more towards the A than the B, which all points to higher idling.
selden Audioholic Jan 14, 2010 142 0 28 Nov 4, 2014 #22 In the vast majority of cases, of course, you pay more for NOT having amps in the chassis, irksome though that is. One surprising exception is this year's Marantz SR7009 receiver and equivalent AV7702 pre/pro, which have exactly the same list price in the U.S. ($2K). Elsewhere in the world, though, the SR7009 is less expensive than the AV7702. The claimed analog SNR is only a few DB better for the AV7702: 105dB vs 100dB. I haven't seen any formal measurement reviews. Since most AVRs use class A/B amps, their amps always draw a little power even when not connected to a speaker. (Class A amps always dissipate the same amount of power whether or not they're driving a speaker. Class A/B amps change from class A to class B at some low wattage which varies from one design to another.) As previously mentioned, Denon's top-of-the-line AVRs let you completely turn off their unused amps.
In the vast majority of cases, of course, you pay more for NOT having amps in the chassis, irksome though that is. One surprising exception is this year's Marantz SR7009 receiver and equivalent AV7702 pre/pro, which have exactly the same list price in the U.S. ($2K). Elsewhere in the world, though, the SR7009 is less expensive than the AV7702. The claimed analog SNR is only a few DB better for the AV7702: 105dB vs 100dB. I haven't seen any formal measurement reviews. Since most AVRs use class A/B amps, their amps always draw a little power even when not connected to a speaker. (Class A amps always dissipate the same amount of power whether or not they're driving a speaker. Class A/B amps change from class A to class B at some low wattage which varies from one design to another.) As previously mentioned, Denon's top-of-the-line AVRs let you completely turn off their unused amps.
H Hobbit Audioholic Chief Nov 26, 2012 783 0 28 Nov 4, 2014 #23 Chacranajxy said: 1) Delay when changing signals. This is my number one pet peeve, and something I'd like to avoid. I hate it when a receiver/processor cuts off the beginning of a song because it has to figure its poop out. It should just work. My UMC-1 also has a nasty habit of doing this every time there's a few seconds of silence. It's infuriating particularly when playing games, and there's no excuse for it. Click to expand... My old B&K ref 20 was notorious for this. It was downright annoying that the first song on a CD or the start of any movie the sound was cut out. It drove me nuts always missing the the beginning of Hotel California on the Hell Freezes Over dvd. I'm actually surprised to hear your UMC-1 has this issue. The ref 20 was late 90's technology... I would probably guess most the big names have mostly solved this. I've had no problems with my Integra pre/pro.
Chacranajxy said: 1) Delay when changing signals. This is my number one pet peeve, and something I'd like to avoid. I hate it when a receiver/processor cuts off the beginning of a song because it has to figure its poop out. It should just work. My UMC-1 also has a nasty habit of doing this every time there's a few seconds of silence. It's infuriating particularly when playing games, and there's no excuse for it. Click to expand... My old B&K ref 20 was notorious for this. It was downright annoying that the first song on a CD or the start of any movie the sound was cut out. It drove me nuts always missing the the beginning of Hotel California on the Hell Freezes Over dvd. I'm actually surprised to hear your UMC-1 has this issue. The ref 20 was late 90's technology... I would probably guess most the big names have mostly solved this. I've had no problems with my Integra pre/pro.
RichB Audioholic Field Marshall Jul 22, 2005 1,925 0 83 Nov 4, 2014 #24 selden said: Since most AVRs use class A/B amps, their amps always draw a little power even when not connected to a speaker. (Class A amps always dissipate the same amount of power whether or not they're driving a speaker. Class A/B amps change from class A to class B at some low wattage which varies from one design to another.) As previously mentioned, Denon's top-of-the-line AVRs let you completely turn off their unused amps. Click to expand... Does that mean you could completely turn off all amps and use it as a preamp? - Rich
selden said: Since most AVRs use class A/B amps, their amps always draw a little power even when not connected to a speaker. (Class A amps always dissipate the same amount of power whether or not they're driving a speaker. Class A/B amps change from class A to class B at some low wattage which varies from one design to another.) As previously mentioned, Denon's top-of-the-line AVRs let you completely turn off their unused amps. Click to expand... Does that mean you could completely turn off all amps and use it as a preamp? - Rich
j_garcia Audioholic Jedi Jul 11, 2005 32,531 0 113 Nov 4, 2014 #25 Hobbit said: My old B&K ref 20 was notorious for this. It was downright annoying that the first song on a CD or the start of any movie the sound was cut out. It drove me nuts always missing the the beginning of Hotel California on the Hell Freezes Over dvd. I'm actually surprised to hear your UMC-1 has this issue. The ref 20 was late 90's technology... I would probably guess most the big names have mostly solved this. I've had no problems with my Integra pre/pro. Click to expand... Most are better at it, but basically none have solved it. That's one reason why I use analog for music.
Hobbit said: My old B&K ref 20 was notorious for this. It was downright annoying that the first song on a CD or the start of any movie the sound was cut out. It drove me nuts always missing the the beginning of Hotel California on the Hell Freezes Over dvd. I'm actually surprised to hear your UMC-1 has this issue. The ref 20 was late 90's technology... I would probably guess most the big names have mostly solved this. I've had no problems with my Integra pre/pro. Click to expand... Most are better at it, but basically none have solved it. That's one reason why I use analog for music.
selden Audioholic Jan 14, 2010 142 0 28 Nov 4, 2014 #26 RichB said: Does that mean you could completely turn off all amps and use it as a preamp? - Rich Click to expand... Yes. The Denon AVR 4520 is one such. It's two years old and is selling at a substantial discount now. It's replacement, the AVR X7200W isn't shipping yet, though. Reactions: RichB
RichB said: Does that mean you could completely turn off all amps and use it as a preamp? - Rich Click to expand... Yes. The Denon AVR 4520 is one such. It's two years old and is selling at a substantial discount now. It's replacement, the AVR X7200W isn't shipping yet, though.
surveyor Audioholic Chief Nov 7, 2003 944 0 28 Nov 4, 2014 #27 The AVR-4520 has a very robust amp section also!
R rnatalli Audioholic Ninja Jul 2, 2007 4,050 0 113 Nov 5, 2014 #28 Chacranajxy said: Interesting. But wouldn't it be kinda... wasteful to pair a receiver with an amp? I'm not sure if spending that kind of money on a straight-up processor would net me better quality components, like the DAC, for example. Click to expand... Not necessarily. In fact, there have been times where receivers have outperformed pre/pros when it comes to measurements.
Chacranajxy said: Interesting. But wouldn't it be kinda... wasteful to pair a receiver with an amp? I'm not sure if spending that kind of money on a straight-up processor would net me better quality components, like the DAC, for example. Click to expand... Not necessarily. In fact, there have been times where receivers have outperformed pre/pros when it comes to measurements.
slipperybidness Audioholic Warlord Jul 24, 2011 7,946 0 113 Nov 5, 2014 #29 darien87 said: Huh? So if I turn on my stand alone amp but don't connect any speakers to it, it isn't drawing power????? You logic seems kinda flawed there dude. I only have experience with using one Yamaha receiver as a pre/pro but there was a REMARKABLE difference between it and my first processor as far as background noise. Granted this was about 10 years ago. Now if newer, higher quality receivers can put out as clean a signal as a pre-pro then fine but I still don't see the point in paying for amps that I'm not using. Click to expand... Yeah, of course it is pulling power. Even at "idle", the output devices will be pulling "quiescent power", that is the power that it takes to turn on the output devices and establish the bias and load lines. Now for class AB, it will be biased very near cutoff, i.e. "not much power" at idle.
darien87 said: Huh? So if I turn on my stand alone amp but don't connect any speakers to it, it isn't drawing power????? You logic seems kinda flawed there dude. I only have experience with using one Yamaha receiver as a pre/pro but there was a REMARKABLE difference between it and my first processor as far as background noise. Granted this was about 10 years ago. Now if newer, higher quality receivers can put out as clean a signal as a pre-pro then fine but I still don't see the point in paying for amps that I'm not using. Click to expand... Yeah, of course it is pulling power. Even at "idle", the output devices will be pulling "quiescent power", that is the power that it takes to turn on the output devices and establish the bias and load lines. Now for class AB, it will be biased very near cutoff, i.e. "not much power" at idle.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Nov 5, 2014 #30 AVR these days are great performers in terms of sound quality. And with all the new technology coming out every year, you probably want to buy a new one about 4 -5 years. So I think it's best to buy an AVR around $1K and use as a pre-pro or AVR. I think something like the Denon X4000 for around $650 would be good. Last edited: Nov 5, 2014
AVR these days are great performers in terms of sound quality. And with all the new technology coming out every year, you probably want to buy a new one about 4 -5 years. So I think it's best to buy an AVR around $1K and use as a pre-pro or AVR. I think something like the Denon X4000 for around $650 would be good.
cpp Audioholic Ninja Dec 13, 2005 3,859 0 83 73 Plantation Bay, Ormond Beach and Ocala Fl Nov 5, 2014 #31 GranteedEV said: Not gonna pretend I have any experience with it, but the product near the top of my interest-list is this one: http://www.trinnov.com/products/high-end/altitude32/introduction-altitude32/introduction-4/ Of course, I'm probably gonna pick up the new Yamaha, Emotiva, or Marantz <_< Click to expand... $23,885.61 for the Trinnov holy smokes, the thing should get me a beer for that price and take my shoes off, feed the dog and cook dinner and not necessary in that order.
GranteedEV said: Not gonna pretend I have any experience with it, but the product near the top of my interest-list is this one: http://www.trinnov.com/products/high-end/altitude32/introduction-altitude32/introduction-4/ Of course, I'm probably gonna pick up the new Yamaha, Emotiva, or Marantz <_< Click to expand... $23,885.61 for the Trinnov holy smokes, the thing should get me a beer for that price and take my shoes off, feed the dog and cook dinner and not necessary in that order.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Nov 5, 2014 #32 cpp said: $23,885.61 for the Trinnov holy smokes, the thing should get me a beer for that price and take my shoes off, feed the dog and cook dinner and not necessary in that order. Click to expand... Nothing compared to the prices of Mark Levinson, Krell, etc. Probably has a Denon or Yamaha inside of it.
cpp said: $23,885.61 for the Trinnov holy smokes, the thing should get me a beer for that price and take my shoes off, feed the dog and cook dinner and not necessary in that order. Click to expand... Nothing compared to the prices of Mark Levinson, Krell, etc. Probably has a Denon or Yamaha inside of it.
selden Audioholic Jan 14, 2010 142 0 28 Nov 5, 2014 #33 Trinnov uses a multicore Intel CPU. The more cost-effective systems use less expensive DSPs from the likes of Analog Devices or Texas Instruments. http://www.trinnov.com/products/high-end/altitude32/technology/?lang=en_us
Trinnov uses a multicore Intel CPU. The more cost-effective systems use less expensive DSPs from the likes of Analog Devices or Texas Instruments. http://www.trinnov.com/products/high-end/altitude32/technology/?lang=en_us
G GIEGAR Full Audioholic Apr 7, 2013 278 0 43 Australia Nov 6, 2014 #34 darien87 said: Huh? So if I turn on my stand alone amp but don't connect any speakers to it, it isn't drawing power????? You logic seems kinda flawed there dude. Click to expand... Of course it's drawing power. But who's talking about the power draw of idle stand alone amps? My point was clearly about the power output of the internal amps of an AVR when not directly hooked up to speakers. I was responding because this… darien87 said: Sure it's wasteful. Unless your receiver allows you to turn off its internal amps you're wasting that power. Click to expand... …sounded to me like you were saying that significant power output was being wasted unless internal amps could be turned off. The notion that idle power consumption amounting to small fractions of a watt could be considered wasteful wasn't obvious to me.
darien87 said: Huh? So if I turn on my stand alone amp but don't connect any speakers to it, it isn't drawing power????? You logic seems kinda flawed there dude. Click to expand... Of course it's drawing power. But who's talking about the power draw of idle stand alone amps? My point was clearly about the power output of the internal amps of an AVR when not directly hooked up to speakers. I was responding because this… darien87 said: Sure it's wasteful. Unless your receiver allows you to turn off its internal amps you're wasting that power. Click to expand... …sounded to me like you were saying that significant power output was being wasted unless internal amps could be turned off. The notion that idle power consumption amounting to small fractions of a watt could be considered wasteful wasn't obvious to me.
TLS Guy Audioholic Jedi Oct 30, 2007 27,296 0 113 79 Eagan MN Nov 6, 2014 #35 You would have to measure the quiescent power draw. The power draw will vary depending on design. If the amp is biased further towards class A idle power will be greater. Biasing too far to class B results in excess low level signal distortion. Low level signal distortion is not usually specified but should be. Distortion on low level signals is very noticeable. For a typical A/B amp the current draw at idle for a 100 watt amp would typically be in the neighborhood of 15 watts. So a receiver with 7 amps would draw 75 watts just for the unused amps. If the draw is less than this then it likely is not a very good amplifier. Personally I think separates do have advantages, including but not exclusive of connectivity options. I personally am not interested in owning a receiver ever. They are just a rotten concept. Reactions: RichB and darien87
You would have to measure the quiescent power draw. The power draw will vary depending on design. If the amp is biased further towards class A idle power will be greater. Biasing too far to class B results in excess low level signal distortion. Low level signal distortion is not usually specified but should be. Distortion on low level signals is very noticeable. For a typical A/B amp the current draw at idle for a 100 watt amp would typically be in the neighborhood of 15 watts. So a receiver with 7 amps would draw 75 watts just for the unused amps. If the draw is less than this then it likely is not a very good amplifier. Personally I think separates do have advantages, including but not exclusive of connectivity options. I personally am not interested in owning a receiver ever. They are just a rotten concept.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Nov 6, 2014 #36 TLS Guy said: Personally I think separates do have advantages, including but not exclusive of connectivity options. I personally am not interested in owning a receiver ever. They are just a rotten concept. Click to expand... Do you think $2K separates sound better than $1K AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha?
TLS Guy said: Personally I think separates do have advantages, including but not exclusive of connectivity options. I personally am not interested in owning a receiver ever. They are just a rotten concept. Click to expand... Do you think $2K separates sound better than $1K AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha?
RichB Audioholic Field Marshall Jul 22, 2005 1,925 0 83 Nov 6, 2014 #37 AcuDefTechGuy said: Do you think $2K separates sound better than $1K AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha? Click to expand... Do you believe that your AVP sounds better than $1K AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha? If not, how much do you want for it? - RIch
AcuDefTechGuy said: Do you think $2K separates sound better than $1K AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha? Click to expand... Do you believe that your AVP sounds better than $1K AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha? If not, how much do you want for it? - RIch
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Nov 6, 2014 #38 RichB said: Do you believe that your AVP sounds better than $1K AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha? If not, how much do you want for it? - RIch Click to expand... Well, duh, of course, my AVP sounds better because it retailed $7,500. My $5,500 AVR-5308 also sounds better than any $4K pre-pro.
RichB said: Do you believe that your AVP sounds better than $1K AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha? If not, how much do you want for it? - RIch Click to expand... Well, duh, of course, my AVP sounds better because it retailed $7,500. My $5,500 AVR-5308 also sounds better than any $4K pre-pro.
RichB Audioholic Field Marshall Jul 22, 2005 1,925 0 83 Nov 6, 2014 #39 AcuDefTechGuy said: Well, duh, of course, my AVP sounds better because it retailed $7,500. My $5,500 AVR-5308 also sounds better than any $4K pre-pro. Click to expand... Sound is subjective, complex, and feature based REQ/DEQ etc. There are always new products and none of us try them all, nor do all agree/believe they all sound alike. I agree with PENG, source components are more critical than amps, but I love amps. I think we can agree that power cords are not critical - Rich Reactions: Alex2507
AcuDefTechGuy said: Well, duh, of course, my AVP sounds better because it retailed $7,500. My $5,500 AVR-5308 also sounds better than any $4K pre-pro. Click to expand... Sound is subjective, complex, and feature based REQ/DEQ etc. There are always new products and none of us try them all, nor do all agree/believe they all sound alike. I agree with PENG, source components are more critical than amps, but I love amps. I think we can agree that power cords are not critical - Rich
slipperybidness Audioholic Warlord Jul 24, 2011 7,946 0 113 Nov 6, 2014 #40 AcuDefTechGuy said: Do you think $2K separates sound better than $1K AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha? Click to expand... Nope. But you are asking the wrong question. The real questions to ask: Do you think $2K separates will be more robust and more reliable than a $1K AVR? Do you think you will have a $1K AMP for 15+ years? How about a $1K AVR for 15+ years? Is it worth a repair on a $2K separate? Is it worth a repair for a $1K AVR? The real advantages of separates is better components and often more power in reserve, and amps are a proven investment in power for the long haul. Receiver reliability can be a concern.
AcuDefTechGuy said: Do you think $2K separates sound better than $1K AVRs from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha? Click to expand... Nope. But you are asking the wrong question. The real questions to ask: Do you think $2K separates will be more robust and more reliable than a $1K AVR? Do you think you will have a $1K AMP for 15+ years? How about a $1K AVR for 15+ years? Is it worth a repair on a $2K separate? Is it worth a repair for a $1K AVR? The real advantages of separates is better components and often more power in reserve, and amps are a proven investment in power for the long haul. Receiver reliability can be a concern.
