External Amps dont make a difference ...whaa?

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
The purpose of these forums for me is to learn and swap opinions. You and others do share the same opinion on my External Amp question and I will use this to further my audio quest in other directions other than amps . Maybe put in towards new speakers or some room treatments.

As for my Crown issue it will produce the feedback with no power cord plugged in and a ground between AVR and the Crown Chassis. I have 3ft shielded rca's and the moment I plug them in to the crown I can hear the feedback . My speakers are not connected to the crown they are connected to my AVR but the crown will still produce feedback in all six speakers once its connected to my AVR via the pre-outs.

Out of curiosity when using your crowns as sub amps how do you get phase control? Is their a product they sell to do this?
I don't see how it could be feedback.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
The purpose of these forums for me is to learn and swap opinions. You and others do share the same opinion on my External Amp question and I will use this to further my audio quest in other directions other than amps . Maybe put in towards new speakers or some room treatments.

As for my Crown issue it will produce the feedback with no power cord plugged in and a ground between AVR and the Crown Chassis. I have 3ft shielded rca's and the moment I plug them in to the crown I can hear the feedback . My speakers are not connected to the crown they are connected to my AVR but the crown will still produce feedback in all six speakers once its connected to my AVR via the pre-outs.

Out of curiosity when using your crowns as sub amps how do you get phase control? Is their a product they sell to do this?
Oh the phase/delay thing...minidsp.
 
Jon AA

Jon AA

Audioholic
I hate to say it, but I think that's just a fact of life with the Crown XLS. Many of us use them for subs where such issues aren't really a concern. I have an XLS 1502 powering a sub but I never considered using it full range. It definitely gave me a hum, so I put a low pass on it with a miniDSP which pretty much took care of it--something you can't do if running it full range.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
I hate to say it, but I think that's just a fact of life with the Crown XLS. Many of us use them for subs where such issues aren't really a concern. I have an XLS 1502 powering a sub but I never considered using it full range. It definitely gave me a hum, so I put a low pass on it with a miniDSP which pretty much took care of it--something you can't do if running it full range.
Not very conclusive..
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I was just getting comfortable with believing what you said.... Until I saw the picture of that Aragon ! It looks awesome
Oh yeah, I left out bragging rights as a benefit of a high dollar amp :D!
I bought the Aragon used for $750 - it is about 15 years old, but it was the most high dollar (MSRP) amp I bought before realizing I was wasting money.
Performance-wise, I would roughly equate it to the current Monoprice Monolith 7 Amp that sells for $1600 (the Monolith also has XLR inputs, while the Aragon spent money on the aluminum front plate). Honestly, I'd give the nod to the Monolith because it is built in the USA by ATI using a well proven design.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Where’s @TLS Guy on this topic of Separates vs AVR? :D

No matter what you believe, if you’ve always wanted to go with separates, then go for it.

To me it's just a matter of preference.

For my main system, I prefer separates. For my other systems I prefer AVRs.
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
Just curious, as I didn’t see it anywhere. What happens when the speakers are actually connected to the crown?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I hate to say it, but I think that's just a fact of life with the Crown XLS. Many of us use them for subs where such issues aren't really a concern. I have an XLS 1502 powering a sub but I never considered using it full range. It definitely gave me a hum, so I put a low pass on it with a miniDSP which pretty much took care of it--something you can't do if running it full range.
Was that a ground loop hum, how did you take care of it with a low pass then? I am just curious as you are talking about a sub, that has to play below 80 to 120 Hz. Also, iirc the XLS1502 has DSP features, have you found any use for them? Thanks
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Not arguing just asking but in your collection of amps is there not one you favor over the other because of some sound quality difference? I just thought that different Toplogies of amps and better parts in general would make a difference.
I don't have too many amps. It peaked at 8 not counting preamps and avrs, but one died/disappeared before I got around to try fixing it, so only 7 left and just sold one and end up with 6.

You asked an interesting question, a simple one but one that no one asked before. The one I favor over the other is actually the cheapest one, the NAD C326 BEE but not because of sound quality difference. I honestly cannot say they all sound the same if compared using the same source, playing the same music passage over and over, level matched and using the same speakers etc., but I also cannot tell any of them apart, even when the lowly AVR-X3400H was in the loop. There was only one time I set up such a comparison for my younger son-in-low who just started on this expensive path/hobby. He was able to tell the difference between the 4BSST and A21, but we were too busy that day for the adhoc session. Mine score was hopeless as I hadn't got a clue which one was playing. If I remember correctly, he got it right about 4 out of 6 times but he could not say which one sounded better to him. Months later I offered to sell him one of the two and he took the 4B SST right way, only because it still has 7 years warranty left at the time. He has a PhD in an audiology related field and I have no doubt his hearing is way better than mine base on tests.

Yes different topology and better parts in general would make a difference, some graphs I plotted using REW also show differences, but consider the following:

- Can you honestly hear such minute, like less than 1 dB difference at varies frequencies, when moving you hear a few inches would change as much or more than that?
- Can you hear the difference between well designed/built class AB amps (so harmonics profiles should be very similar) that have THD+N between 0.05% and 0.1%?
- Take a careful look of the frequency response curves of speakers, go for the accurate ones such as Revel's and then ask yourself a logical question, whether the ruler flat FR for the audible range offered by even most AVRs would be an issue large enough to be audible. Keep in mind too, those curves were obtained by measuring in an anechoic chamber. If measured in your own room, all bets are off.

People argued there are other factors that are not typically measured in most reviews, such as slew rate related distortions (e.g. TIM) but if you Google the topic you would find for music, even AVRs should have no issue exceeding the minimum requirements.

Thank you for not arguing, me neither.:D It is nice to be able to discuss such a hot topic based on scientific facts and observations from studies/experiments, as well as subjective experiences, but not hearsay that are widespread on the internet. @RichB is one who could tell you all kinds of differences he heard from different amps under controlled conditions. I disagreed with his "theories/explanations" but I always enjoyed his post and exchanges in opinions/experiences. It would be great if he chimes in so you can get his opinions, that I value, whether I think he has excellent discerning hearing, more prone to Placebo, or both.., or not..
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
These type of threads make me appreciate the 2 prong cords on receivers. :)

If I ever buy amps, it will be from somewhere with a good return policy. Hum and/or hiss are a deal breaker for me. :)
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Field Marshall
Sorry I didnt explain that properly . My speakers are all connected to my Marantz SR-6012 . In this configuration there is no hum or feedback. If i connect my Marantz pre-outs to the Crown I will get a high pitch feedback from all my speakers ,it is not loud but it is their. Bare in mind that the Crown is not plugged in and has no speakers attached to it. I also tried chassis grounding both units together ,this made no difference I also bought a voltage regulator and line filter and this made no difference either.
Any Ideas?
OK, now, why do you have the Marantz IC'd to the Crown yet speaker cables sill hooked to the AVR ? Have you not tried to configure it as you intended ? perhaps that's the problem ??
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I was just getting comfortable with believing what you said.... Until I saw the picture of that Aragon ! It looks awesome
I lol'd.

Adding an amp to my SR6011 didn't make any difference I could detect until I get into ridiculous loud. Louder than what is safe for extended periods.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Where’s @TLS Guy on this topic of Separates vs AVR? :D

No matter what you believe, if you’ve always wanted to go with separates, then go for it.

To me it's just a matter of preference.

For my main system, I prefer separates. For my other systems I prefer AVRs.
Me too, just the main system, for the others, don't care.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I think food is a reasonable analogy as if you spent the last 2 hours preparing special food (or even sitting in the kitchen watching it being prepared), the anticipation is going to result in heightened attention to the taste of the food and you will enjoy it more than you would if you just walked in the door (not thinking about food)!
Similarly, if we spent the last 1/2 hour driving home thinking about listening to a favorite song on our system, that song will generally sound more profoundly great than it would if it just popped up on a shuffle play.
You can look at it as being more alert to the sound and thus taking in a little more nuance than you otherwise might, or you can think of it as biochemical endorphins/stimulants that your body generates from your anticipation!
I think look play a huge part in impacting our auditory sense for sure. Every time I vacuum and wipe down everything in my HT room, tidy up everything and eliminated clutters, my system seemed to sound better overall too.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I think look play a huge part in impacting our auditory sense for sure. Every time I vacuum and wipe down everything in my HT room, tidy up everything and eliminated clutters, my system seemed to sound better overall too.
I've said that before too!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
My system is a PC connected via Toslink to my AVR which is connected to Klipsch Rp-8000f (front channel) , Paradigm Monitor 11 v6 ( surround) , Klipsch Rf82ii (surround back). All equipment connected to a voltage regulator and noise filter (which made no difference:()
As to your question "You get a high pitched whine from the speakers that are still powered by your avr just by having rca's connected to the Crown when the Crowns are not plugged into power?" YEP the moment the rca's are connected to the Crown all speakers connected to the AVR emit a low volume high pitch noise.
If the Crown is only connected to the Marantz via audio cables, I would ask where the Crown is located and where the audio cables have been run. Make sure you connected the Crown to the Pre Out jacks, not the Pre In- I'm not accusing you of doing this, but it happens- especially if connections are made without looking directly at the rear of the AVR. In either case (wired correctly, or not), the power amp is acting as an antenna.

Also, look at your system- do you have a UPS with an inverter (an actual one, not a surge protector without a battery)? Those can be very noisy. I had a situation like yours in a system I installed- as it is, it works fine but as soon as I connect ANY kind of cable to the receiver, it picks up the noise from the inverter in the UPS and I verified this by moving the wand from my cable identifier around the area and it produced the strongest noise near the UPS.

If you're using cables with XLR connectors, try using cables with RCA plugs- the fact that the cables may have XLR doesn't mean you can't have noise although hum is more likely to be heard than buzzing.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I think look play a huge part in impacting our auditory sense for sure. Every time I vacuum and wipe down everything in my HT room, tidy up everything and eliminated clutters, my system seemed to sound better overall too.
Are you sure it's not because the music is more enjoyable than the noise from the vacuum cleaner?
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Field Marshall
I think look play a huge part in impacting our auditory sense for sure. Every time I vacuum and wipe down everything in my HT room, tidy up everything and eliminated clutters, my system seemed to sound better overall too.
very true, same applies to the vehicle after an oil change and a car wash !
 

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