Experts Only - I need help

[jeffsg4mac]

There's nothing wrong with the JBL speakers. They're made to be rode hard and put away wet and they sound decent. This isn't a home- it's a bar/restaurant. Fine sounding speakers aren't needed.

They just did not appear adequate for his square footage. However, I did not look that close. I would still prefer the Klipsch in that type of venue though.

 

[lsiberian]

It seems to me you have gone way over budget. Wasn't this supposed to be 8k?

 

[westcott]

First, if that is the only advice you got from your potential supplier/installer, I would find someone else. A system is a lot more than just hardware.

I could not find any data on the JBL speakers you listed. If you could provide some links with data, I could tell you how sensitive they are and how much power they will require.

In a large venue, I would also suggest a horn loaded speaker like Klipsch. They take far less power to drive and often do not require any separate amplification. This will save you money while still providing plenty of volume. Many movie theaters use them for this very reason. A speaker with a sensitivity of 100dB or more would be ideal to keep amp costs down. A receiver with 100+ watts per channel should be more than adequate to drive these speakers to ear bleading volumes.

We will need better photos to help you PROPERLY place your speakers, screen, and seating distances.

I would also stick with a 5.1 or 5.2 system to save money. Not a lot of content supports a 7.1 system so if cost is an issue, I would scratch it. I would wire for it, while the walls are open and add them later if your budget grows later.

Like I said before, not everyone can watch DLP so DILA or LCD is a safer bet for your viewers. Last thing you want is your patrons getting head aches or upset stomachs.

Some sound treatments are recommended, as well as, a consultant that can at least perform some room mode calculations. All rooms will have a problem area or frequency. A qualified consultant can help you with that. Anyone can sell hardware, the true professsionals provide a comprehensive audio and video solution.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

 

[jostenmeat]

I would guess you're not looking for the perfect theater experience in this room since it's a commercial establishment and not a home theater. I would also assume the theater will be running for more than five continuous hours every day. For that reason I'd stay far away from a single chip DLP projector that uses a color wheel. I would also assume the ceiling area where the projector will be mounted will get HOT. Make sure you provide proper ventilation for the projector to prevent premature failure.

I would look at one of the three chip LCD projectors like the:

Panasonic PT-AE4000U
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Panasonic-PT-AE4000U.htm

Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 8500UB
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Home_Cinema_8500_UB.htm

Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 9100 Projector
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Pro_Cinema_9100.htm

Mitsubishi HC6800 HD Projector
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-HC6800.htm

Mitsubishi HC6500U Projector
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-HC6500U.htm

As far as the screen, try to keep the height of the screen approximately 1/3 the distance to the central area of the seating. So if you're 12 feet from the screen, you would need an image 4 feet high. With a 16:9 (1.78:1) screen you would need a 100" diagonal screen. Keep in mind that the bigger the image the more lumens (brighter) the projector needs to be and for the most part the farther the projector has to be from the image.

To be honest, for an installation like this, I'd really recommend a professionally installed rear projection system. It can solve a lot of issues and not take up that much real estate in the room. But they are not in any way cheap.


The room will have some serious acoustic issues due to the room dimensions, materials of construction and unknown seating (amount of occupants). For these reasons I'd make sure the front three speakers are more than adequate to provide sound capable of being heard in the back of the room over people talking. Otherwise the people in the back of the room won't hear the dialog. Unless this room is going to have dedicated seating and a controlled access for people entering and leaving, the surround sound provided by rear channel speakers will become almost un-needed. Just my thoughts.....

majorloser, I'm not sure that I agree with 3LCD. LCD PJs are the least bright, period. They are a great choice in the 1.5-2.5k price range for a home theater, with a screen around 80-120" in a light controlled room. The screen that will be necessary for this room will be at least twice as large, very possibly even 3x larger, with high chances of poorer light control.

3LCD has the lowest fill ratio of all the competing technologies.

Now, yes DLP has the moving parts, but LCD panels can form dust blobs, as they aren't sealed. A non issue with DLP or LCOS.

If you look at the list given by BMX, every single one of them is DLP.

Single chip DLP will be the sharpest of all competing technologies, since convergence is a non-issue.

If it was me, as a big LCOS fan, I'd likely choose DLP here with budget and other conditions.


tiojason, sorry if I missed it and/or forgot, but answer these questions for us:

How many feet from front row eyes to screen?
How many feet from rear row eyes to screen?

How wide is the riser/seating-area?

How wide of a screen can you fit?

I may have more interesting input to add after you answer those questions, as others likely will as well.

edit: random tidbit, there are at least 155 titles that are recorded in 7.1, and that number grows all the time.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I can only add to this that it seems like you are getting recommendations which are way beyond the proposed budget. While I can understand that people are pushing you in a direction which makes it 'right', they are also completely blowing your budget.

JBL speakers tend to be inexpensive, and there are some other brands as well, which have decent quality without being audiophile grade, but are sturdy for the money and will last in the space.

If you want someone else to install this, you have a solid $2,000-$3,000 minimum for installation costs, which must be taken into account, which drastically impacts the budget.

I really think the budget is low, but if that is your budget, you have to work with it and anyone dealing with you needs to work with it as well - but they just need to pass on the limitations of your setup and environment.

 

[tiojason]

You guys rock

OK - more information. Attached are two poorly drawn diagrams.

The space will ONLY be used for screening movies, and there will be no "in and out" -the room will be closed and quiet during screenings. I've decided to make this a really dedicated room. Screw karaoke.

I am assimilating all the info. If any of you want to really get involved feel free to call me! 917.406.9192 I am looking for a consultant - if you are local to Brooklyn maybe you can get paid for your work.

Cheers to you all.

(still trying to attach....)

 

[tiojason]

ok pictures

And the new budget - for projector, speakers, pre-amp, amp(s), cables, blu-ray player, and whatever else I'm forgetting is 12k. Install I will cover separately.

Final answers? LOL

Thanks.

 

[majorloser]

The screen that will be necessary for this room will be at least twice as large, very possibly even 3x larger, with high chances of poorer light control.

There is really no way you will get a front projection in this price range to drive a 300 inch screen, much less a 200 inch.

The Panny's and the Epsons have at least 1,600 lumens. If the projector is set on the short side of the throw distance to the screen and the screen has a good gain, no problem. You will also note the OP stated there will be a dark curtain between the columns on the open side of the room. Light control will always be an issue in this area for a front projector in this price bracket. But I would still take a LCD projector over a DLP any day. Much better reliablility. BMX like DLP's. I hate 'em. The only one I've seen lately that caught my interest is the new Sim2 MICO with R/G/B LED light source. But of course that's a $40K projector.

Of course if money was not the object here, as I stated before, I would recommend a custom stage with a rear projection screen. People moving around in front of the screen and ambient light are no longer big issues with that kind of installation. He could also have a fairly large imagewith no rpoblem. But there's that money issue again.

Now as far as speakers, I agree with BMX about the JBL speakers. They are tough little numbers that are really well suited to commercial applications. As I stated before, the front speakers are the most important. They should be large enough to overcome people talking in this type of setting. Except for a subwoofer, the rest will probably end up being pretty much ignored in this space if they have patrons constantly coming and going during the movies.







I'm really surprised somebody else hasn't brought this up, yet. I figured at least one person out there was going to rain on the parade. This little theater sounds a lot like the OP plans on having public showings of copyrighted materials, ie: movies.

 

[majorloser]

And the new budget - for projector, speakers, pre-amp, amp(s), cables, blu-ray player, and whatever else I'm forgetting is 12k. Install I will cover separately.

Final answers? LOL

Thanks.

FWIW

From just looking at the drawing, it looks like you might not have enough room for the rise between each row of seating to allow for that many rows. Nine rows of seating in 28 feet?

You need almost 10" to 12" rise between each row to allow full view of the screen. Otherwise the screen needs to be mounted pretty high on the front wall. This can make for some uncomfortable viewing in the front rows.

 

[tiojason]

We're only showing first run premiers of independent films - so no MPAA issues.

The risers are six inches - screen will probably have to be a little high for that front row or two. C'est la vie. Max width for screen is 144 inches - so 16*9 will get me a 144*81 (L*W) screen, I believe. Probably not great at 39 feet but you know- just doing my best here....

 

[BMXTRIX]

It is incorrect that I lean towards DLP - I actually typically go for LCD, but bright 1080p LCD projectors are not to market yet, so DLP is the ONLY option within the budget.

As such, I would pick from this list for projectors, and I must say that the BenQ is one of the ones which really intrigues me for the price and performance ratio...
http://www.projectorcentral.com/projectors.cfm?g=1&hide=0&st=1&mfg=&p=500&p=4500&w=&r=13&br=3000&br=7000&ll=&t=&db=&dt=&c=&ar=&dvi=&td=&i=d&is=&sort=pop&sz=15

http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-SP890.htm

You get lens shift and a 1.5:1 zoom ratio which will deliver a 12' wide image from about 18' to 28' away from the screen. I would try to get it closer to the edge of the top of the screen if possible. It looks like it may be able to be a foot or so over the screen... maybe.

 

[tiojason]

It is incorrect that I lean towards DLP - I actually typically go for LCD, but bright 1080p LCD projectors are not to market yet, so DLP is the ONLY option within the budget.

As such, I would pick from this list for projectors, and I must say that the BenQ is one of the ones which really intrigues me for the price and performance ratio...
http://www.projectorcentral.com/projectors.cfm?g=1&hide=0&st=1&mfg=&p=500&p=4500&w=&r=13&br=3000&br=7000&ll=&t=&db=&dt=&c=&ar=&dvi=&td=&i=d&is=&sort=pop&sz=15

http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-SP890.htm

You get lens shift and a 1.5:1 zoom ratio which will deliver a 12' wide image from about 18' to 28' away from the screen. I would try to get it closer to the edge of the top of the screen if possible. It looks like it may be able to be a foot or so over the screen... maybe.

Is the 4:3 native of that BenQ an issue considering I'll be doing mostly 16:9 (at least - I think I will)....

 

[BMXTRIX]

Not 4:3 native - 1080p native!

This was recently announced so it may be a month or so before we see it on the streets, but the industry is moving (slowly) to a 16:9 standard.

Native: 1920x1080 Pixels

 

[jostenmeat]

There is really no way you will get a front projection in this price range to drive a 300 inch screen, much less a 200 inch.

Sorry, I should have been more specific when I said size. I meant surface area. So, 160" as 1.78 offers more than 250% the surface area of a 100" screen (or more than 4x that of an 80")!

The Panny's and the Epsons have at least 1,600 lumens.

All manufacturers seem to overrate their lumens, but some more than others. JVC is at least somewhat close to their stated lumens. For instance, my RS1 I believe is rated at 700, and Feierman measured 773 in best mode, 654 with low lamp with best settings, and 887 in color-accuracy-be-damned mode.

3LCD PJs are either rather dim, or pretty bright, depending on the mode chosen.

Let's take the Panasonic 4000u, now, for instance. Rated at 1600 after a quick google. *looks up Feierman review* . . . in best mode, this 1600-rated PJ measured only 430 lumens.

Now, in dynamic mode (with quick recal/compromise) it can crank up to 930 lumems, or more than double its best mode. If you put the PJ as close as possible, zoomed out max, Feierman says you can get 1235 lumens, colors be damned. (mid is 1071, tele-out is 711). He also mentioned that putting contrast maxed out to +8 can get you 60 more lumens, but I'm not sure if the last few numbers offered included that or not.

Anyways, I'm not sure I would say they "have at least 1600 lumens". But, maybe you know something I don't . . .

But I would still take a LCD projector over a DLP any day. Much better reliablility. BMX like DLP's. I hate 'em. The only one I've seen lately that caught my interest is the new Sim2 MICO with R/G/B LED light source. But of course that's a $40K projector.

For my own theater, I would likely choose LCD over DLP as well. However, for this establishment, I would likely choose DLP, as previously stated.

Of course if money was not the object here, as I stated before, I would recommend a custom stage with a rear projection screen. People moving around in front of the screen and ambient light are no longer big issues with that kind of installation. He could also have a fairly large imagewith no rpoblem. But there's that money issue again.

Of course. The RP solutions that I know of are extremely expensive. I don't know many, that's for sure, but what I do know is that it can be insane. Way too much money, way too much commitment, as my guesstimation to the OP's needs.

 

[jostenmeat]

We're only showing first run premiers of independent films - so no MPAA issues.

The risers are six inches - screen will probably have to be a little high for that front row or two. C'est la vie. Max width for screen is 144 inches - so 16*9 will get me a 144*81 (L*W) screen, I believe. Probably not great at 39 feet but you know- just doing my best here....

Yeah, of course it has to be a compromise. No one wants to sit in the very front row of a movie theater, but sometimes those are the only seats left.

You can fit a 165" 16:9 screen with those numbers. I would shave that down a good number of inches for frame/masking, etc.

Like I said before, I would get the PJ before the screen. Fire the pic at the wall, have some friends or employees sit in different rows, and see how high the BOTTOM of the screen must be.

So, I guess the 3LCD may work, depending on final screen size, as long as you don't mind suffering more than you have to with color accuracy and black detail, and that you can get the PJ closer to screen. Still, DLP should be able to get you comparable (or in fact better) brightness, yet while still in best mode.

 

[lsiberian]

Go with JBL, Klipsch, JTR, or QSC. All are very good speakers for cinema.

The Cinema quality surrounds go for around 500 a pair at the lowest price these will do just fine
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638082-REG/JBL_8320_8320_Compact_Cinema_Surround.html

The fronts are much more expensive and you may need to find a dealer for them shipping them is much harder. You will want horns for everything you buy including the sub. I suggest you head down to BH Photo & Video after passover. They have great prices and are located in Manhattan so you should be able to check them out one day. I'm sure there is no shortage of cinema speaker dealers given where you are at. Some may even offer installation and setup as a package deal.

If you get cinema level speakers 3 will be plenty for the fronts. You can try 1 horn sub first and add another if necessary. Don't go overboard or you will find yourself in the poor house really fast. If you really need to cheap out you can use some decent DJ speakers for the fronts.

 

[tiojason]

what about the "directionalness" of highs....

Go with JBL, Klipsch, JTR, or QSC. All are very good speakers for cinema.

The Cinema quality surrounds go for around 500 a pair at the lowest price these will do just fine
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638082-REG/JBL_8320_8320_Compact_Cinema_Surround.html

The fronts are much more expensive and you may need to find a dealer for them shipping them is much harder. You will want horns for everything you buy including the sub. I suggest you head down to BH Photo & Video after passover. They have great prices and are located in Manhattan so you should be able to check them out one day. I'm sure there is no shortage of cinema speaker dealers given where you are at. Some may even offer installation and setup as a package deal.

If you get cinema level speakers 3 will be plenty for the fronts. You can try 1 horn sub first and add another if necessary. Don't go overboard or you will find yourself in the poor house really fast. If you really need to cheap out you can use some decent DJ speakers for the fronts.

The consultant I spoke with said that because highs are directional (and lows are not) that I would need at least two center speakers - one aimed at the back taller row of seats and one aimed at the front, lower seats so that all audience members would be able to hear the highs. Is that true? If I mounted the center speaker below the screen couldn't I angle it up and catch all the seats with one speaker? And if I do need 2 - do I need another channel for the second center speaker or do I just split the one channel (in other words - can I still use a 5.1 system, and get a L, R, two C, and 2 surrounds plus sub....?

 

[lsiberian]

The consultant I spoke with said that because highs are directional (and lows are not) that I would need at least two center speakers - one aimed at the back taller row of seats and one aimed at the front, lower seats so that all audience members would be able to hear the highs. Is that true? If I mounted the center speaker below the screen couldn't I angle it up and catch all the seats with one speaker? And if I do need 2 - do I need another channel for the second center speaker or do I just split the one channel (in other words - can I still use a 5.1 system, and get a L, R, two C, and 2 surrounds plus sub....?

It really depends on the speaker used. Horns have a wave guide that will cover a large area of seats. Also to be considered is how many seats you are using.

You might need 2 speakers depending on your seating arrangement.

 

[jostenmeat]

Because there will be so many people, and without the exact seating arrangement given, I would get the PJ first, fire the pic at the wall, and just use your eyeballs! In fact, that's what I normally recommend anyways. That said, you can play with a calculator for the moment:

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html

Depending on the height available to you, I imagine the center speaker must go OVER the screen. Then you have to consider how high the bottom of screen must be for the rear row to be able to see.

Look at Seymour DIY AT (acoustically transparent) materials. There are two PDFs on how to frame it. This method will save you THOUSANDS. Now, you can hide the front 3 speakers, have the dialogue/action/panning be totally locked, and finally you are given more freedom in terms of space (don't have to figure out how to place speakers with huge screen).

I still like what I said as my first response in this thread, over a month ago.

I'm not sure that two speakers are necessary for center channel. You do not want the speaker lower, to fire upwards, as much as you would prefer to have it higher, firing downwards on multiple rows.

Regarding my last advice to you, as far as the bottom of the screen, you can play with this little calculator:
http://www.theater-calc.com/

Just pick a very capable, high efficiency, commercial type speaker.

So, yeah, if you do not get an AT screen, you will almost certainly have to compromise on screen size to fit speaker(s) in. I think some JTR Triple 12s would be pretty cool to try, and if they can't fill the space, I'm curious what will. Here are a few of those, with grilles on, in rmk's system (he has a tab tensioned Stewart to fall over the plasma). Also, note the DSX height speakers (for 9.1):

Here is a pic of a member (bassbig) system here, using that Seymour CenterStage XD stuff I was talking about. I think the screen is 154", lit up by an affordable single chip DLP, and the owner is a professional videographer, so if he likes it, I bet most people would:

Center speaker installed:

 

[tiojason]

Whoa!ind it. I have a contractor here now - I'll have him make a frame - this sounds

Now that's a crazy amount of speakers.

I hear what you are saying about the AT stuff. I have to make my screen smaller if I don't hide the speakers behind it. I have a contractor here now - I'll have him make a frame and buy that good stuff.

Any thoughts on this:

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/rf-63-home-theater-system-overview/

To just be done with it?

Is that 200/800 peak on the center speaker enough to handle this room?