Experts Only - I need help

[tiojason]

Ok - so I'm going to ask for the kind of advice that one usually pays for. I totally understand if it's not forthcoming for free - but I need to try. Also, I'm long-winded.

I need some advice on what total sound system to invest in.

I own a bar and restaurant in Brooklyn, NY. I've decided to expand to a 800 sq ft private room in the back of the building. The room is 20X40, with 12.5' high barrel-vaulted ceilings (the vaults run like 3 foot wide inverted waves down the length of the room - see rebarnyc . com for examples, although not an image of the new room). Every surface is terracotta, including the three columns that run down the right hand side of the room, lengthwise, 8 feet from the wall.

I am going to use this room for three purposes. One, as a wide open lounge for parties. Two, as a dining room for weddings. and three (most of the time) as a 50 seat screening room. Because the columns break the room up into 1/3 - 2/3, the screen will be on the back of the 2/3 width side (12 feet wide) and seating will run 4-5 wide back from there, up a movable rake, for the length of the room.

I will be screening new films, student projects, maybe old classics, as well as using the system for occasional karaoke and live music.

I know - crazy.

Any thoughts on a professional surround system, including hd projector(which I know is at least 2k), fixed screen (500?) amp(s), speakers, etc. that will handle all that for under 8k total? If not - what price am I looking at?

All help appreciated - you guys are the experts.

Cheers, Jason (jason@rebarnyc.com)

 

[BMXTRIX]

Any thoughts on a professional surround system, including hd projector(which I know is at least 2k), fixed screen (500?) amp(s), speakers, etc. that will handle all that for under 8k total? If not - what price am I looking at?

If you are talking about a fixed, on wall screen, then go to www.carada.com and you can pick up the size you need without issue.

For a projector, I would pick from this list to get some added lumens for the larger screen and for potential use with some lights on...

http://www.projectorcentral.com/projectors.cfm?g=1&hide=0&st=1&mfg=&p=100&p=5000&w_m=&r=13&br=3000&br=100000&ll=&t=&db=&dt=&c=&ar=&dvi=&td_m=&i=d&is_m=&sort=pop&sz=15

I would take a close look at that new Mitsubishi model. But, the cheap 3,000 lumen Optoma may be a decent performer for the cash!

For speakers you have hundreds of choices, likewise for amplification and surround processing.

You may want to consider the Emotiva products...
http://emotiva.com/umc1.shtm
$720

http://emotiva.com/xpa5.shtm
$825

Some speakers... (5 of them!)
http://emotiva.com/erm63.shtm
$3,000

A good subwoofer...
http://www.axiomaudio.com/ep600.html#

Or maybe a complete setup..
http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Intimus-6T-Grand-XD,128,72,291.aspx
or
http://www.axiomaudio.com/epic80_800.html#

You have tons of choices, and you could even get buy far cheaper, or go with active speakers, but you could quickly get into budgetary trouble...

http://www.jblpro.com/products/cinema/index.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ci=12322&N=4290441630+4291399742

You definitely have options, and for $8,000 you aren't likely going to have it installed for you within that budget.

 

[Kai]

Wow great idea...not crazy at all...wish I were close enough to become a customer.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I'm not an expert in Pro Installs (BMX is) but sounds like very tight budget indeed...
I'd consider a lot of inexpensive speakers here to cover 50 seats as well as surely more than one subwoofer (cheaper than mentioned by BMX)

Luckly pro-grade equipment doesn't have to outrageously expensive and brands like Behringer most likely will have equipment you need.

If you intend to run use the projector ether in dark or semi-dark environment, while lumens are important - don't forget to check your throw ratio'sto make sure your projector placement (and limitations) agree's with your desired screen size.

Speaking of screen size - I think 140" is the least you should even consider and most likely go higher than this size.

p.s: I live nearby so visiting the place is viable option for me

 

[tiojason]

Thanks!

Is that screen size reco diagonal or width?

All of this is incredible helpful! Thank you so much. I will start my research now with all of your links. And boredsysadmin - feel free to give me a call if you want to swing by! Free dinner and drinks for you and a friend. 917.406.9192.

Any other thoughts on complete systems - powered versus passive, etc, would be greatly appreciated.

One more thing - the room is entirely brick with no soft surfaces whatsover.... I know I know....

Cheers,

Jason

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't ever associate Karaoke speakers with Music/Movie speakers.

I think you definitely need external amps for that size room + lots of people.

How about some professional Yamaha amps and Speakers?

Add a Yamaha or Denon receiver for the Pre-Pro section (the receiver also has amps inside just for backup).

I think most people would get an Epson or Panasonic Projector.

I always imagine that my DefTech speakers could fill a giant-size room because I can turn up the volume and hear the music just fine throughout my 3,000 sq ft house.

But I don't know about that Karaoke.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I think mike_c has Karaoke in his castle

 

[adwilk]

I think you could easily fill that room with your budget, including video.

I'm a huge fan of more smaller speakers than less larger speakers in a room that size. If it were me, I'd be looking at some decent "front" speakers for karaoke, and then a sat/sub setup for general music/movie screening. The overall in-room response will be much better no matter where you're sitting.

 

[tiojason]

this is all great

Don't let the karaoke be a deal killer - just an idea for a space filler monday nights. Most of the time the room will be a theater.

 

[tiojason]

Any satellites you like?

 

[lsiberian]

If you are talking about a fixed, on wall screen, then go to www.carada.com and you can pick up the size you need without issue.

For a projector, I would pick from this list to get some added lumens for the larger screen and for potential use with some lights on...

http://www.projectorcentral.com/projectors.cfm?g=1&hide=0&st=1&mfg=&p=100&p=5000&w_m=&r=13&br=3000&br=100000&ll=&t=&db=&dt=&c=&ar=&dvi=&td_m=&i=d&is_m=&sort=pop&sz=15

I would take a close look at that new Mitsubishi model. But, the cheap 3,000 lumen Optoma may be a decent performer for the cash!

For speakers you have hundreds of choices, likewise for amplification and surround processing.

You may want to consider the Emotiva products...
http://emotiva.com/umc1.shtm
$720

http://emotiva.com/xpa5.shtm
$825

Some speakers... (5 of them!)
http://emotiva.com/erm63.shtm
$3,000

A good subwoofer...
http://www.axiomaudio.com/ep600.html#

Or maybe a complete setup..
http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Intimus-6T-Grand-XD,128,72,291.aspx
or
http://www.axiomaudio.com/epic80_800.html#

You have tons of choices, and you could even get buy far cheaper, or go with active speakers, but you could quickly get into budgetary trouble...

http://www.jblpro.com/products/cinema/index.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ci=12322&N=4290441630+4291399742

You definitely have options, and for $8,000 you aren't likely going to have it installed for you within that budget.

Do whatever he says for the projector he's an expert there.

For speakers I suggest JTR speakers.

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/triple-8ht/

While the 12" speakers have more extension you will want a sub and the money may be better spent that way. Not sure if you can afford them though.

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator/

Would work or you can look at danley sound labs for subs.

For amps I suggest Yamaha P2500S

If the speakers are too much we can look at other options.

 

[jostenmeat]

Is that screen size reco diagonal or width?

Because there will be so many people, and without the exact seating arrangement given, I would get the PJ first, fire the pic at the wall, and just use your eyeballs! In fact, that's what I normally recommend anyways. That said, you can play with a calculator for the moment:

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html

Depending on the height available to you, I imagine the center speaker must go OVER the screen. Then you have to consider how high the bottom of screen must be for the rear row to be able to see.

Look at Seymour DIY AT (acoustically transparent) materials. There are two PDFs on how to frame it. This method will save you THOUSANDS. Now, you can hide the front 3 speakers, have the dialogue/action/panning be totally locked, and finally you are given more freedom in terms of space (don't have to figure out how to place speakers with huge screen).

You are going to want a light cannon. Check out the BenQ W6000.

All of this is incredible helpful! Thank you so much. I will start my research now with all of your links. And boredsysadmin - feel free to give me a call if you want to swing by! Free dinner and drinks for you and a friend. 917.406.9192.

PM me your location? I will be attending a wedding in the Bronx this summer.

One more thing - the room is entirely brick with no soft surfaces whatsover.... I know I know....

Well, I have been told that in Everest's Master Handbook of Acoustics, humans absorb 5-7 sabins in the 1khz-4khz range as clothed. I offered to help someone take measurements for unclothed, but no takers. 50 people will absorb a lot.

On that note, nearby you, I also was told that the Met Opera House was said to sound better many years ago, when very low necklines were in vogue. Nice cleavages can be beneficial in many ways!

That all said, the true effect will vary from room to room, and yours is not nearly the size of a concert hall. Just sharing for fun really.

 

[tiojason]

You recommend those triple-8hts for left right and center?

 

[westcott]

I think a photo or schematic of the room could help us help you.

Speaker placement, room treatments and seating position are far more important than equipment selection at this point in the game.

Be careful with projectors. Not everyone can tolerate DLP projectors.

A lot of hard surfaces could really destroy the potential of such a large room.

Lots to consider and it would be worth paying someone a few hundred dollars on layout. And I emphasize someone that knows something about room interaction, room nodes, acoustics in general, and proper AV setup and seating distances.

 

[tiojason]

Update

So I hired a consultant. We have decided to do only movies with the system - and buy a cheap piece of garbage for the nights we do karaoke. So that solves that.

The consultant recommended the following:

4 JBL: AC-28/59 Speakers
Left & Right Front
Upper & Lower Center Channel

4 Brackets

4 JBL: 8320 Surround Speakers
2 - Center Surround
2 - Rear Surround

2 JBL: ASB 6115 Subwoofers

1 Crown: CTS 8200 Amp
1 Crown: CTS 2500 Amp

1 Denon: DN-A7100 Processor

Includes 1 man for 1 day to layout

for $10,500. That doesn't even get me the projector or the screen or any cabling or install - seems way over my budget. I'm sure I could cut out one of those subs - but any thoughts on this system? Is it overkill? Is it appropriate? I will get you guys a picture of the room ASAP. Thanks for all of the great advice! You guys a re a godsend....

 

[tiojason]

Update with bad pictures

OK - two images - one from the front of the room, one from the back. A theater curtain will run the 40 foot length of the room just outside the columns. The rake starts 15 feet from the wall and rises to a final floor height of 4 1/2 feet (9 1/2 foot steps) The max size of the screen will be around 180 inches diagonal.


ugg - can't add attachments!?

 

[tiojason]

here we go

Attached pictures - taken badly from camera phone. Don't hate me

 

[jeffsg4mac]

I would not recommend that Denon processor. I would go with this one instead. Much more capable. http://www.onkyopro.com/model.cfm?m=PR-SC5507P&class=Preamplifier&p=i

I would also consider Behringer EP2500/4000 for all the amplification channels.

I would skip the JBL stuff too junk in my opinion. I would go with some Klipcsh stuff. http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/cinema-speaker/

 

[majorloser]

I would guess you're not looking for the perfect theater experience in this room since it's a commercial establishment and not a home theater. I would also assume the theater will be running for more than five continuous hours every day. For that reason I'd stay far away from a single chip DLP projector that uses a color wheel. I would also assume the ceiling area where the projector will be mounted will get HOT. Make sure you provide proper ventilation for the projector to prevent premature failure.

I would look at one of the three chip LCD projectors like the:

Panasonic PT-AE4000U
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Panasonic-PT-AE4000U.htm

Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 8500UB
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Home_Cinema_8500_UB.htm

Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 9100 Projector
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Pro_Cinema_9100.htm

Mitsubishi HC6800 HD Projector
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-HC6800.htm

Mitsubishi HC6500U Projector
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-HC6500U.htm

As far as the screen, try to keep the height of the screen approximately 1/3 the distance to the central area of the seating. So if you're 12 feet from the screen, you would need an image 4 feet high. With a 16:9 (1.78:1) screen you would need a 100" diagonal screen. Keep in mind that the bigger the image the more lumens (brighter) the projector needs to be and for the most part the farther the projector has to be from the image.

To be honest, for an installation like this, I'd really recommend a professionally installed rear projection system. It can solve a lot of issues and not take up that much real estate in the room. But they are not in any way cheap.


The room will have some serious acoustic issues due to the room dimensions, materials of construction and unknown seating (amount of occupants). For these reasons I'd make sure the front three speakers are more than adequate to provide sound capable of being heard in the back of the room over people talking. Otherwise the people in the back of the room won't hear the dialog. Unless this room is going to have dedicated seating and a controlled access for people entering and leaving, the surround sound provided by rear channel speakers will become almost un-needed. Just my thoughts.....

 

[highfigh]

I would not recommend that Denon processor. I would go with this one instead. Much more capable. http://www.onkyopro.com/model.cfm?m=PR-SC5507P&class=Preamplifier&p=i

I would also consider Behringer EP2500/4000 for all the amplification channels.

I would skip the JBL stuff too junk in my opinion. I would go with some Klipcsh stuff. http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/cinema-speaker/

There's nothing wrong with the JBL speakers. They're made to be rode hard and put away wet and they sound decent. This isn't a home- it's a bar/restaurant. Fine sounding speakers aren't needed.