Elucidating AVR Channels vs Total Channels with an Amplifiers

[lovinthehd]

Otoh leaving the amp on is another option.

 

[3db]

Well this was effectively a waste of $300. When is an external amplifier needed then?

An external amp is needed when you purchase low sensitivity speakers with low impedance in the bass region having a large phase angle, 45 degrees and larger and trying to achieve loud SPL in a large canaverous room. Im spelling out absolute worst case here but even trying to fill a big room with low sensitivity speakers can be very difficult to do. Buying a seperate power amp does free you up from having to be careful in choosing speakers from a difficulty to drive perspective.

 

[Pogre]

Unfortunately I’m at the whim of what the used market offers. I’ve listed the paradigms, and I’m on the lookout for some floorstanding RTIs from Polk. There’s nothing more to do. I have no regrets getting the amplifier, it has made a huge difference, and from my reading, polk towers tend to be very power hungry.

Well this was effectively a waste of $300. When is an external amplifier needed then?

So which was it? A huge difference with no regrets or a complete waste..?

My point was instead of buying the amp, put that money toward speakers that haven't been ruined. There are speakers in the $300 range that will be more accurate and likely sound a lot better than the ones you have now. I don't know why you think you have to sell the current speakers first before getting the new ones? Those speakers are the single biggest problem I see with your system. Before and after the amp.

Which, btw I personally wouldn't try to resell them for anywhere near their oem value OR without letting any prospective buyer know that they have been compromised and no longer work like they're meant to. You said there's even visible damage to one of the tweeters! That's gonna be a hard sell and you can't really expect much from waiting for them anyway. It would be very dishonest to do any less. I would be highly upset if I purchased those and found that out afterwards.

 

[lovinthehd]

So which was it? A huge difference with no regrets or a complete waste..?

My point was instead of buying the amp, put that money toward speakers that haven't been ruined. There are speakers in the $300 range that will be more accurate and likely sound a lot better than the ones you have now. I don't know why you think you have to sell the current speakers first before getting the new ones? Those speakers are the single biggest problem I see with your system. Before and after the amp.

Which, btw I personally wouldn't try to resell them for anywhere near their oem value OR without letting any prospective buyer know that they have been compromised and no longer work like they're meant to. You said there's even visible damage to one of the tweeters! That's gonna be a hard sell and you can't really expect much from waiting for them anyway. It would be very dishonest to do any less. I would be highly upset if I purchased those and found that out afterwards.

Well he hadn't adjusted gain yet on the first impression, he's much happier with the gain higher.....whether or not this is any more than just adding more in the beginning, hard to know.

 

[Fried Chicken]

So to add some clarity.

So which was it? A huge difference with no regrets or a complete waste..?

My point was instead of buying the amp, put that money toward speakers that haven't been ruined. There are speakers in the $300 range that will be more accurate and likely sound a lot better than the ones you have now. I don't know why you think you have to sell the current speakers first before getting the new ones? Those speakers are the single biggest problem I see with your system. Before and after the amp.

Which, btw I personally wouldn't try to resell them for anywhere near their oem value OR without letting any prospective buyer know that they have been compromised and no longer work like they're meant to. You said there's even visible damage to one of the tweeters! That's gonna be a hard sell and you can't really expect much from waiting for them anyway. It would be very dishonest to do any less. I would be highly upset if I purchased those and found that out afterwards.

No regrets on either the decision to get the amplifier, nor the choice of amplifier (Yamaha M-65). I initially had the gain levers set to top-dead-center because I didn't want to mess anything up. Now I've set them to the full 0 dB and the sound is simply..... incredible. This is real sound, the type of sound peasants do not know exists. Mind blowing.

The speakers I have no idea what's going on with them. When opening the box, one of the tweeters (the worse one) has more glue/epoxy on it. I'm not selling them anywhere near MSRP. I got them cheap, I will sell them cheap. They're not 'ruined' or even 'bad', but I have this perfectionist push, so I do notice they're not quite right, mostly because of how they're installed. The amplifier helps a lot.

The reason I have to sell these before getting new ones is simply money lol. If an unbeatable deal comes for some speakers, sure I can take it, otherwise I'll wait until I sell the paradigms and then get something else. Beyond the slight shift in volume, the paradigms are amazing.

As I mentioned earlier, my speaker choice is limited to something from Polk Audio's RTI line - RTI 8/10/12 or RTI A5/7/9 to match the rest of the system.

 

[everettT]

So to add some clarity.


No regrets on either the decision to get the amplifier, nor the choice of amplifier (Yamaha M-65). I initially had the gain levers set to top-dead-center because I didn't want to mess anything up. Now I've set them to the full 0 dB and the sound is simply..... incredible. This is real sound, the type of sound peasants do not know exists. Mind blowing.

The speakers I have no idea what's going on with them. When opening the box, one of the tweeters (the worse one) has more glue/epoxy on it. I'm not selling them anywhere near MSRP. I got them cheap, I will sell them cheap. They're not 'ruined' or even 'bad', but I have this perfectionist push, so I do notice they're not quite right, mostly because of how they're installed. The amplifier helps a lot.

The reason I have to sell these before getting new ones is simply money lol. If an unbeatable deal comes for some speakers, sure I can take it, otherwise I'll wait until I sell the paradigms and then get something else. Beyond the slight shift in volume, the paradigms are amazing.

As I mentioned earlier, my speaker choice is limited to something from Polk Audio's RTI line - RTI 8/10/12 or RTI A5/7/9 to match the rest of the system.

Have you considered selling all the speakers and starting fresh? Even if just getting the front 3 to start after as there a plenty of main speakers that have good low frequency output relative to your current sub. IMHO you need to consider that possibility. What do you think you can do as a budget with selling all of the speakers?

If you move up to the two largest polks in the RTi line you will probably require an amp as they aren't an easy load to drive.

 

[Fried Chicken]

Have you considered selling all the speakers and starting fresh? Even if just getting the front 3 to start after as there a plenty of main speakers that have good low frequency output relative to your current sub. IMHO you need to consider that possibility. What do you think you can do as a budget with selling all of the speakers?

If you move up to the two largest polks in the RTi line you will probably require an amp as they aren't an easy load to drive.

I've toyed with the idea, but what's the point? The RTI line is excellent. It's just unnecessary hassle that will cost more money down the line.

Also I have an amp now (170 watts/channel).

 

[everettT]

I've toyed with the idea, but what's the point? The RTI line is excellent. It's just unnecessary hassle that will cost more money down the line.

Also I have an amp now (170 watts/channel).

Excellent is subjective . Personally I prefer a neutral loudspeaker.

Here is the a9 and the center (purple trace and green trace respectively)

The A9 has a has an eleveted midrange which is considered warm
The CS looks pretty good until around 2.5khz which is at the top of the female voice fundamental range where harmonics take over out to 17khz. Both speakers will have issues at that range, but not horrid (again subjective for most) and require boost to transition from the area below 3k to get it a little flatter.

 

[everettT]

I've toyed with the idea, but what's the point? The RTI line is excellent. It's just unnecessary hassle that will cost more money down the line.

Also I have an amp now (170 watts/channel).

Also if you are handy, building your own speakers creates exceptional value. Just another consideration.

For example this kit would be cheaper that the 9s and would completely blow them out of the water on every level, including huge dynamic range. Pre cut cabinets are available as well if you don't have the tools.

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Speaker Design Works

Articles on speaker building and design, as well as complete write ups on many different speaker designs. 7

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[Pogre]

The speakers I have no idea what's going on with them. When opening the box, one of the tweeters (the worse one) has more glue/epoxy on it. I'm not selling them anywhere near MSRP. I got them cheap, I will sell them cheap. They're not 'ruined' or even 'bad', but I have this perfectionist push, so I do notice they're not quite right, mostly because of how they're installed. The amplifier helps a lot.

There is no way I would resell those for any significant amount of money after they've been tampered with the way you described. You have no clue if those are even accurate anymore, if the replacement tweeters blend properly with the existing drivers, the crossovers have been reworked or whatever else has been done. You even said one of them wasn't wired correctly. That sounds amateur to me at best. You're a perfectionist? Welcome to the audiophile club. Every single one of us is a perfectionist and will fuss over a 4 dB fluctuation in the FR of a speaker and we CERTAINLY would not buy a speaker that has been compromised.

I think it's utterly ridiculous to try and improve your sound through amplification and with speakers that you know have been tampered with. I would take the hit, drop those like a hot potato and chalk it up to a lesson learned. You could offer them to me for free and I wouldn't want them. You know why? Because I have this perfectionist push and want speakers that have oem drivers and crossovers that were designed to work together.

*Edit: I take that back. I would take them for free, but only so I could measure their fr to see what the tampering has done to their performance.

 

[Fried Chicken]

Excellent is subjective . Personally I prefer a neutral loudspeaker.

Here is the a9 and the center (purple trace and green trace respectively)
View attachment 38265

The A9 has a has an eleveted midrange which is considered warm
The CS looks pretty good until around 2.5khz which is at the top of the female voice fundamental range where harmonics take over out to 17khz. Both speakers will have issues at that range, but not horrid (again subjective for most) and require boost to transition from the area below 3k to get it a little flatter.

A soundbar is not excellent. The dedicated system with polk RTI’s is excellent. My understanding is the LSiM is beyond excellent, but I can’t afford them and wouldn’t spend that kind of money on something made in China.

Also if you are handy, building your own speakers creates exceptional value. Just another consideration.

For example this kit would be cheaper that the 9s and would completely blow them out of the water on every level, including huge dynamic range. Pre cut cabinets are available as well if you don't have the tools.

Meniscus Audio is coming soon

We are doing some work on our site. Please come back later. We'll be up and running in no time.

meniscusaudio.com

Speaker Design Works

Articles on speaker building and design, as well as complete write ups on many different speaker designs. 7

speakerdesignworks.com

That kit is extremely expensive for what it is, holy crap!

I can get a set of used RTI8’s for $100, or RTI10’s for $200, that’s what I’m looking for, that price range.

There is no way I would resell those for any significant amount of money after they've been tampered with the way you described. You have no clue if those are even accurate anymore, if the replacement tweeters blend properly with the existing drivers, the crossovers have been reworked or whatever else has been done. You even said one of them wasn't wired correctly. That sounds amateur to me at best. You're a perfectionist? Welcome to the audiophile club. Every single one of us is a perfectionist and will fuss over a 4 dB fluctuation in the FR of a speaker and we CERTAINLY would not buy a speaker that has been compromised.

I think it's utterly ridiculous to try and improve your sound through amplification and with speakers that you know have been tampered with. I would take the hit, drop those like a hot potato and chalk it up to a lesson learned. You could offer them to me for free and I wouldn't want them. You know why? Because I have this perfectionist push and want speakers that have oem drivers and crossovers that were designed to work together.

*Edit: I take that back. I would take them for free, but only so I could measure their fr to see what the tampering has done to their performance.

If the tweeters were matched, the speakers would be amazing. I think the guy screwed up one of the installs. Maybe I can get a replacement tweeter that fits the crossover and it would be great. It’s really not as bad as you’re making it out to be. The previous owner owned some HT shop and got the speakers sent to them as a gift by paradigm. I don’t know why he decided to lord helmet with it. The weird thing is that one of the crossovers measures lower values across everything (resistance, capacitance, and inductance) when I probed it with my different meters. I think it’s the main inductor has a lower inductance. I might open it up and lord helmet with it.

I don’t know why you’re so against the amplifier. It has improved the sound of the system *significantly*, especially in the lows and mids. I have quite a large room and 7 large power hungry speakers to fill it. The RX-A810 couldn’t keep up. I already told you, I’m at the mercy of what’s available when it comes to audio equipment. I don’t have thousands or even hundreds to spend, and I need to sell what I have before I can look to getting an improvement. I saw this amplifier for sale, it was conveniently located, and it is *very* good. I adjusted the biases according to the service manual, so hopefully it will stay reliable. I also have a fan sitting on top to keep it cool. http://legendaryamps.com <-- that guy certainly likes these, and poop, maybe he’s right.

 

[Pogre]

I don't care about your amp. I am not "against" it at all. I am however, "against" those speakers and think that's the first thing you should have addressed. I'd be "against" anything you did without replacing them first. You're the one who went out of your way to comment about the amp. I was replying to this.

Regarding nobody telling me to get an amplifier....

Unless you have some type of documentation showing what and where those tweeters came from, are compatible with that design and the work was done correctly then you cannot assume they're fine and work like they're supposed to. Based on your findings and upon visual inspection the work that was done sounds shoddy and amateur and I would pet a paycheck it wasn't done correctly. I've been ripped off before and it gets my hackles up when I see what looks like someone getting ready to pull a fast one like selling effed up speakers and passing them off as "excellent". You have absolutely no clue how accurate they are anymore. Unless whoever did what they did to them performed due diligence, sourced compatible tweeters for that specific speaker, really knew what they were doing and/or completely redesigned the crossovers then they are absolutely compromised.

 

[everettT]

A soundbar is not excellent. The dedicated system with polk RTI’s is excellent. My understanding is the LSiM is beyond excellent, but I can’t afford them and wouldn’t spend that kind of money on something made in China.


That kit is extremely expensive for what it is, holy crap!

I can get a set of used RTI8’s for $100, or RTI10’s for $200, that’s what I’m looking for, that price range.

Not sure where soundbars came into play?

As for that kit being very expensive "for what it is" is a strange statement. If that where a finished retail product it would sell for around 3k for the pair. That's a great value, but if money is the issue you can get kits that are a 1/2 of that price that still far outperform even "used rti a's".

I never said the RTAi speakers were bad , just that there our other options. Why do you think you can get them so cheap used?

No need to get defensive, we are just trying to give you options.

 

[Fried Chicken]

I don't care about your amp. I am not "against" it at all. I am however, "against" those speakers and think that's the first thing you should have addressed. I'd be "against" anything you did without replacing them first. You're the one who went out of your way to comment about the amp. I was replying to this.

Unless you have some type of documentation showing what and where those tweeters came from, are compatible with that design and the work was done correctly then you cannot assume they're fine and work like they're supposed to. Based on your findings and upon visual inspection the work that was done sounds shoddy and amateur and I would pet a paycheck it wasn't done correctly. I've been ripped off before and it gets my hackles up when I see what looks like someone getting ready to pull a fast one like selling effed up speakers and passing them off as "excellent". You have absolutely no clue how accurate they are anymore. Unless whoever did what they did to them performed due diligence, sourced compatible tweeters for that specific speaker, really knew what they were doing and/or completely redesigned the crossovers then they are absolutely compromised.

I have no reason to think they were sourced incorrectly, just installed incorrectly. I think one got squished in and therefore doesn't have the openness/frequency response of the other and therefore sounds slightly quieter.

[edit]

The reason I didn't immediately get the towers is again because I'm scouring the used market for audio equipment, and only update as I find stuff that's available. The amp became available so I got it. When towers become available, I will get those as well.

Not sure where soundbars came into play?

As for that kit being very expensive "for what it is" is a strange statement. If that where a finished retail product it would sell for around 3k for the pair. That's a great value, but if money is the issue you can get kits that are a 1/2 of that price that still far outperform even "used rti a's".

I never said the RTAi speakers were bad , just that there our other options. Why do you think you can get them so cheap used?

No need to get defensive, we are just trying to give you options.

Yeah I guess, it's out of my price regime, so I'm not particularly familiar. What I mean to say is having the setup that I have, 7 speakers, with the two front towers powered by an amplifier is already above and beyond what 99% of people have.

 

[Fried Chicken]

I have scoured the used market, and it has delivered. I got a pair of RTI 10’s for $175. They’re definitely not as good speakers as the paradigms, however having them match with the rest of the system makes a bigger difference than I was expecting.

I would describe the RTI 10’s (RTI A7 equivalents) as being more muffled than the Paradigms with overall less clarity (treble, mids, midbass, and bass), however they are easier to listen to. I believe the larger cones on the paradigms provided a better more filling and clear sound. I read that the RTI line is better for movie watching than music listening, and I tend to agree.

I’m selling the paradigms. They need new tweeters which appear periodically on ebay for like $100 a pair. I’ve adjusted the price accordingly.

It really bothers me that I’ve now heard something better and am “downgrading”, however I also now see that I’d have to upgrade at the minimum 5 speakers, and it’d be a whole new rabbit hole to crawl down that I’m simply unwilling to do.

I appreciate the help