Electric Vehicles?

[mtrycrafts]

@ 110, it will take a long time and use up that fuel though, but better than no gas. @ 240, less of a problem. There was an article the other day about a lady who used an outlet at an abandoned gas station to charge her Tesla lol.

Wonder if that was free or just still worked at normal price.

 

[j_garcia]

Wonder if that was free or just still worked at normal price.

I can't find the article now, but I was under the impression it was free lol. Not sure why the elec was still on there.

 

[cpp]

@ 110, it will take a long time and use up that fuel though, but better than no gas. @ 240, less of a problem. There was an article the other day about a lady who used an outlet at an abandoned gas station to charge her Tesla lol.

Oh the stories will come out as more people purchase EV's and people try to cheat their EV mileage and end up in all sorts of charging scenarios.

 

[Swerd]

Years ago, I was in the Navy, stationed in southern Italy. Gasoline was expensive. The US military in Europe provided discount coupons for buying gas. If I remember correctly, the discounted price was about 25% of the local price of gas. We were limited to coupons for 200 liters per month, about 53 gallons. I drove a small Fiat with a 10 gallon (38 L) gas tank, so I could easily get by with the coupons. But some people foolishly brought their US gas-guzzling cars with them, and they had trouble with 200 L/month.

Those coupons were only good at Esso stations. (The name Esso was still used at the time in Europe, not Exxon.) There were only so many Esso stations, so, if you drove on a longer trip, you had to keep an eye on your remaining fuel, or buy expensive gas off the local economy. Most people carried a small ~1½ gallon jerry-can of gas, as a back up.

I learned a good trick from someone. Each time you fill your tank, set your trip odometer to zero. Over time, learn how many miles you get on a tank of gas. The fuel gauges on most cars were not very accurate, especially when the tank was nearly full or getting low. A trip odometer actually worked better as a fuel gauge, if you learned how far you can drive on one tank full. At the time, my car had a warning light on the gas gauge that let me know I had a little more than 1 gallon (4-5 L) left. With the trip odometer, I knew I could easily go about 40 miles more once the warning light came on. If I had my jerry can full, I had another 50 miles. That trip odometer trick let me stop worrying about running out of gas.

On a road-trip with an EV, there are fewer recharging places than gas stations. But it's not different than what I faced in southern Italy. And, an EV's "fuel gauge" is quite a lot more reliable than typical gas gauges. I can believe my EVs battery gauge better than my trip odometer or gas gauge in any gas powered car. If I use the on-board GPS navigation system, the EV's computer knows my destination, and is quite good at telling me how far I can drive with my remaining battery juice. Learn to trust that, never ignore it, and you'll have no stress about driving range.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Those coupons were only good at Esso stations. (The name Esso was still used at the time in Europe, not Exxon.) There were only so many Esso stations, so, if you drove on a longer trip, you had to keep an eye on your remaining fuel, or buy expensive gas off the local economy. Most people carried a small ~1½ gallon jerry-can of gas, as a back up.

Still Esso up here.

 

[Swerd]

Instead of 1½ gallons of gas in a jerry-can, I carry a mobile car charger (came with the new EV) that works with 120 or 240V taps. I've added a 15' extension cord rated for a 240V 50A charger, just in case I need it. And I recently bought a NACS-to-J1772 adapter so I can charge up my EV with a Tesla 240V Level 2 charger, such as at Tesla Destination Chargers (at hotels or restaurants), or what Tesla owners have at home. And when there are enough Tesla Supercharger stations equipped with the CCS adapters, I'll sign onto the Tesla Supercharger network.

 

[Jeepers]

Still Esso up here.

Also still in several European countries.

 

[Swerd]

This morning I read a good article in the Washington Post. It makes a detailed comparison of how much it costs to run EVs vs. gasoline burning vehicles. It compared Pick-up trucks, SUVs, and Sedans separately.

The cost of electricity vs. gasoline varies from state to state. Prices of electricity vary by the charging method, the time of day, and the state. People charge their EVs by different methods. Road taxes, rebates and battery efficiency all affect the final calculation. This article tackles these problems. As a result, it's long. I've summarized it below. And I also attached the whole article below as a PDF.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2023/electric-vehicle-charging-price-vs-gasoline/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f003

A very short summary:
How much does it cost for a fill-up vs. a charge-up?

In all 50 states, it’s cheaper for the everyday American to fill up with electrons – and much cheaper in some regions such as the Pacific Northwest, with low electricity rates and high gas prices.​

A Road Trip Across One State: San Francisco to Disneyland (Anaheim, CA) 408 miles

The winner? The EV – barely.​

A Road Trip Across Several Mid-West States: Detroit to Miami 1,401 miles

The EV wins sometimes, but not always​

Do EV detractors have a valid point?

Some detractors claim that EVs cost more to run than gasoline vehicles. Critics claim they make some unusual key assumptions that alter their conclusions.​

Here's the entire article in PDF format.

 

[TLS Guy]

This morning I read a good article in the Washington Post. It makes a detailed comparison of how much it costs to run EVs vs. gasoline burning vehicles. It compared Pick-up trucks, SUVs, and Sedans separately.

The cost of electricity vs. gasoline varies from state to state. Prices of electricity vary by the charging method, the time of day, and the state. People charge their EVs by different methods. Road taxes, rebates and battery efficiency all affect the final calculation. This article tackles these problems. As a result, it's long. I've summarized it below. And I also attached the whole article below as a PDF.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2023/electric-vehicle-charging-price-vs-gasoline/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f003

A very short summary:
How much does it cost for a fill-up vs. a charge-up?

In all 50 states, it’s cheaper for the everyday American to fill up with electrons – and much cheaper in some regions such as the Pacific Northwest, with low electricity rates and high gas prices.​

A Road Trip Across One State: San Francisco to Disneyland (Anaheim, CA) 408 miles

The winner? The EV – barely.​

A Road Trip Across Several Mid-West States: Detroit to Miami 1,401 miles

The EV wins sometimes, but not always​

Do EV detractors have a valid point?

Some detractors claim that EVs cost more to run than gasoline vehicles. Critics claim they make some unusual key assumptions that alter their conclusions.​

Here's the entire article in PDF format.

The problem comes that as vehicle numbers rise, the electric grid can not support it. There are now stations on UK motorways that have up to 50 charging points. The grid is not up to it. So stations are installing diesel generators to handle the times when the grid can not handle the number of cars charging. This is just makes nonsense of the whole electric car rationale as that will add far more CO2 and pollutants than running liquid fuel powered vehicles.

 

[j_garcia]

This morning I read a good article in the Washington Post. It makes a detailed comparison of how much it costs to run EVs vs. gasoline burning vehicles. It compared Pick-up trucks, SUVs, and Sedans separately.

The cost of electricity vs. gasoline varies from state to state. Prices of electricity vary by the charging method, the time of day, and the state. People charge their EVs by different methods. Road taxes, rebates and battery efficiency all affect the final calculation. This article tackles these problems. As a result, it's long. I've summarized it below. And I also attached the whole article below as a PDF.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2023/electric-vehicle-charging-price-vs-gasoline/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f003

A very short summary:
How much does it cost for a fill-up vs. a charge-up?

In all 50 states, it’s cheaper for the everyday American to fill up with electrons – and much cheaper in some regions such as the Pacific Northwest, with low electricity rates and high gas prices.​

A Road Trip Across One State: San Francisco to Disneyland (Anaheim, CA) 408 miles

The winner? The EV – barely.​

A Road Trip Across Several Mid-West States: Detroit to Miami 1,401 miles

The EV wins sometimes, but not always​

Do EV detractors have a valid point?

Some detractors claim that EVs cost more to run than gasoline vehicles. Critics claim they make some unusual key assumptions that alter their conclusions.​

Here's the entire article in PDF format.

I read that the other day. Pretty good info. When you factor in temperature though, range will decrease. What we need is not an EPA estimate, but a real world idea based on the average temps in your area. Here it is pretty mild, hot for a little while in summer and moderately cold in winter, so not so serious that it will impact it too much I think.

We generally plan a stop on the way to LA anyway, it would be enough time to charge. There are a lot of chargers where we stop, but they look pretty full of Teslas usually. Tesla is expanding the number of chargers at that location significantly for that reason.

 

[Swerd]

I read that the other day. Pretty good info. When you factor in temperature though, range will decrease. What we need is not an EPA estimate, but a real world idea based on the average temps in your area. Here it is pretty mild, hot for a little while in summer and moderately cold in winter, so not so serious that it will impact it too much I think.

The Polestar 2 offers a heat pump, as an option, for heat & AC. The standard Polestar uses electric resistance based heat, plus the usual AC. A heat pump consumes less battery juice than electric resistance based heat when the weather is cold. I highly recommend spending extra to get the heat pump.

In an EV, a heat pump also diverts heated or cooled air to the battery compartment, as determined by the car's computer. EV batteries run & recharge better when the temperature is not too cold or too warm. (I'm not sure what non-heat pump EVs do about this, but I assume they also heat or cool the battery when needed.) On a road trip in June, I heard my heat pump system running as I charged up using a fast DC charger. At first, I thought I had forgotten to turn off the climate control, but I realized the car's computer switched it on while I charged up in warm weather.

On cold mornings, Volvo recommends running the climate control roughly 10-15 minutes before driving. It's easy to do this with the smartphone app. From what I see online about the Polstar 2, I think it works the same.

Volvo also recommended that during cold weather, to set the climate control cooler than with an ICE car. Make up the difference with the heated seats & steering wheel – they use less battery juice than the heat pump. In the past, I heated my ICE car to about 72° F. ICE cars produce lots of excess heat that is lost, so heating the cabin was free. Now I set the EV to 68° in the winter. So far, Volvo’s advice seems to work well, but last winter (2022/23) was pretty mild.

 

[j_garcia]

I wasn't aware, but while investigating the car, the C40 recharge and the Polestar 2 are the same platform.

 

[Swerd]

I wasn't aware, but while investigating the car, the C40 recharge and the Polestar 2 are the same platform.

Didn't know that, but it makes sense.

When I got my C40, the heat pump was an option, as in the Polestar 2. Volvo includes heat pumps with the Climate or Ultimate packages. Nearly all C40s at local dealers, including mine, came with that more expensive Ultimate option package.

Polestar includes the heat pump in what they call the Plus pack.

Polestar 2 – Range and charging | Polestar US

Learn more about the range of the single- and dual-motor versions of Polestar 2 and the intelligent features that make it go further on a single charge.

www.polestar.com

Energy-saving heat pump

Waste heat doesn't have to be wasted. Using thermal energy from the electric motors, battery, and ambient air, the heat pump warms up the passenger compartment and helps get more miles out of a charge. Available with the Plus pack.

 

[j_garcia]

Heat pump is included in each optional package basically, the salesperson told me. You can't get the heat pump without the packages so it is the only way to get it. I think there are only 3 packages, Pilot which I think is now standard on all versions, Plus and Performance. I am considering dual motor with Performance package which offers 455hp/546tq. and 275 mi range. Heat pump not included with Pilot package.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

A very short summary:
How much does it cost for a fill-up vs. a charge-up?

Didn’t read the whole thing, and it may be in there. But this question above stuck with me. Seems the difference between a “fill up”, and a “charge up” is overlooked. Since a fill up in my truck is good for over 500mi, it seems that would take several charge ups to be an apples to apples comparison. Again, it may be covered in the article. Just thought I’d ask.

 

[ryanosaur]

Didn’t read the whole thing, and it may be in there. But this question above stuck with me. Seems the difference between a “fill up”, and a “charge up” is overlooked. Since a fill up in my truck is good for over 500mi, it seems that would take several charge ups to be an apples to apples comparison. Again, it may be covered in the article. Just thought I’d ask.

A lot of the minute details like what you are asking come back to a comment they made frequently about slight differences.

So much depends on what your electricity costs are vs your gas costs.

I'm in the process of finding out which rate plan is going to give us the best deal. I charge after midnight, but our current plan is not time of use, rather based on baseline kw per hr... But since getting the smart meter installed our bill has gone down (because PG&E isn't estimating every other month!). *more rolling of eyes

Our cheapest local unleaded is $5.05 per gallon right now. I never look at diesel, but I've seen it up well over $6 for a bit a year or so back.

*shrugs

 

[Swerd]

Didn’t read the whole thing, and it may be in there. But this question above stuck with me. Seems the difference between a “fill up”, and a “charge up” is overlooked. Since a fill up in my truck is good for over 500mi, it seems that would take several charge ups to be an apples to apples comparison. Again, it may be covered in the article. Just thought I’d ask.

Good question! When I first read that article, I had the same question, for the same reason.

In that big table on page 3, the $ savings in all 50 states plus the District of Columbia for Truck, SUV, or Sedan, all reflect equivalent driving distances. Just below that table, the author said this:

In Washington state, with prices around $4.98 per gallon of gas, it costs about $115 to fill up a [Ford] F-150 which delivers 483 miles of range. By contrast, recharging the electric [Ford] F-150 Lightning (or Rivian R1T) to cover an equivalent distance costs about $34 – an $80 savings. This assumes, as the Energy Department estimates, drivers recharge at home 80% of the time, along with other methodological assumptions at the end of this article.

 

[j_garcia]

The article I read said charging at public chargers would cost about the same as gas, especially during the day when they expect people will be charging and utility rates are higher. Charging at home, particularly off peak, will be cheaper than gas in most areas except at times of the year when rates might be highest. It also sounded like charging time, which is what most chargers use, is more important than how much electricity you use as it seems they are all time based not KwH based. So a car that charges faster would be desirable.

How you drive and what you drive, as well as your commute, matter obviously. My car only gets about 350 or so miles per tank (STI, turbo, not great mileage) and I would have to fill up roughly weekly. So an EV that gets about 270-320 would still put me in about the same zone, charging about once a week. My commute is short, but traffic heavy, so it would seem to not favor gas.

 

[ryanosaur]

The article I read said charging at public chargers would cost about the same as gas

I know this is just official mouthpiece dogma, but the word from Tesla was that using the Superchargers would "always be less than the cost of filling up at a gas station," (or at least the expected mileage equivalent...). *shrugs
~~~
I keep finding all this both fascinating and annoying at the same time. I think the coolest aspect is that we are truly at a tipping point for a "new" technology replacing the ICE and traditional motor vehicles. Its no wonder to me that there are issues in the transition such as Tesla potentially fibbing about range or other such details. I'm more curious, in that regard, to know if even my 2023 Y is part of that or not. I certainly haven't tried to stretch its range on a long drive.
Regardless, its all a quasi-paradigm shift as we transition.
While getting used to the electrification is the current phase, imagine how much worse (and possibly insurmountable) it would have been if we tried going full bore into Hydrogen instead. While the Hydrogen model is probably closer to the model of distributing gasoline, the required infrastrcture of building or refitting individual stations is often cited as prohibitively expensive.
I still think the absolute best solution would be making Solar more readily available and easier for people to install and refit their homes. Even apartment buildings could benefit from having some aspect of Solar installed.
Frankly, for all the comments above about the condition of the grid, this would absolutely be the fastest way to alter the conversation. The sooner we supplement Hydro-electric, nuclear or coal by other means, the better off we will all be, even if we aren't all electrifying our mode of transportation.

 

[panteragstk]

Didn’t read the whole thing, and it may be in there. But this question above stuck with me. Seems the difference between a “fill up”, and a “charge up” is overlooked. Since a fill up in my truck is good for over 500mi, it seems that would take several charge ups to be an apples to apples comparison. Again, it may be covered in the article. Just thought I’d ask.

Did the amount of time of charging vs. filling up a tank come into play?

That'd be the main drawback for me owning an EV.

Now if we could do a battery swap type program like they have in other countries, that'd be awesome. Not possible in cars yet, but they do it with bikes and scooters. Almost zero down time.