Dynamic Range 20-20K

[Anglofun]

Yes, you can also do that with REW, by measuring things like impulse response, but on the hardware side, you can look at the slew rate specs. Slew rate of modern electronics is generally a solved issue though.

Here's an easy to read an old article on Slew rate by Steve Munz of Audioholics.com, it included an Editorial by an Electronics Designer for Classe :

Slew Rate in Audio Amplifiers - What Does it Mean?

With the Classe gear you are using, I highly doubt you have to worry about "the speed in which it takes to get there", you just have to make sure your amps have more than enough voltage and current your speakers need to get your the maximum SPL you need at you seats without clipping, or excessively high distortions+noise.

Much appreciated, I am on this as soon as I can.

 

[Anglofun]

Don't worry about speed unless the distance between the speakers and listener(s) is very large and even then, it would only matter for eliminating delays between multiple speaker cabinets, as in, a large venue show. In a room, the best way to see how well the output from all drivers is aligned in using impulse tests or wit pink niose, REW or some other accurate spectrum analysis, showing phase cancelations as deep dips in the response where the response at the crossover frequencies coincides.

I meant the time it takes (slew rate) for each driver to reach its dynamic capabilities.

 

[lovinthehd]

I meant the time it takes (slew rate) for each driver to reach its dynamic capabilities.

You're still misusing the dynamics term it seems.

 

[MrBoat]

I don't know if you are speaking in general but for me I am chasing anything nor looking for problems. I am on a discussion forum, so I am just discussing. Been on and off forums for the last 25 years.

Wasn't aimed at you, particularly. It's just something I see being mentioned a lot as if it's a quality really difficult to achieve. I just haven't been able to match the condition, myself. Someone else told me that it's because my systems probably suck so I can't possibly know what they are talking about. Just spent around 5 hrs with a pair of largish 3-ways with an FR of 35-20khz and nothing is missing from the performance and this from a relatively old, budget design, a class D amp, budget diy streamer and DAC board in a rather haphazard garage system where I am sitting no more than 4 ft from the speakers.

If I am finding things better than others with the same recordings on different systems, the reasons are typically obvious as to why, and not unexpected and at least well within EQ range. Still, none of these differences are at the cost of dynamic range, or imaging, for that matter. The only time I tend to have any sort of lacking with dynamic range, is when trying to get by without ample headroom, like trying to use difficult to drive speakers with just enough power.

The only other time I have thought about dynamic range, is when using speakers that are too powerful for the space, played too softly, as well as speakers too small for a space, played too loudly.

 

[highfigh]

I meant the time it takes (slew rate) for each driver to reach its dynamic capabilities.

What are the units used for amplifier slew rate? I'll answer- Volts/microsecond. Do you honestly believe that you can hear any different between a common number of 50V/uS and 1V/uS? Audible sound goes to about 20KHz- if 1 microsecond = 1 cycle, it would mean that the frequency is 1 billion Hz.

Slew rate applies to amplifiers and the signal has no real mass- speakers do and they move. Slew rate is nothing that needs to be considered and you have been misled by people who talk about 'fast woofers'. Mids and tweeters are already much faster and most attempts to make them faster have caused the sound to suffer. Dynamic speakers are lightweight by design and the voice coil & magnet form a motor that's easily able to move the cone assembly without problems. They do have an upper frequency limit, so we use smaller drivers for higher frequencies.

How loud do you want the sound? Speaker sensitivity and ability to dissipate heat limit output as much as anything- once the voice coil's temperature rises, its resistance follows and eventually, thermal compression occurs. The only way to counter that is by increasing power (Voltage) and that immediately increases the VC's temperature until it fails.

 

[Anglofun]

Wasn't aimed at you, particularly. It's just something I see being mentioned a lot as if it's a quality really difficult to achieve. I just haven't been able to match the condition, myself. Someone else told me that it's because my systems probably suck so I can't possibly know what they are talking about. Just spent around 5 hrs with a pair of largish 3-ways with an FR of 35-20khz and nothing is missing from the performance and this from a relatively old, budget design, a class D amp, budget diy streamer and DAC board in a rather haphazard garage system where I am sitting no more than 4 ft from the speakers.

If I am finding things better than others with the same recordings on different systems, the reasons are typically obvious as to why, and not unexpected and at least well within EQ range. Still, none of these differences are at the cost of dynamic range, or imaging, for that matter. The only time I tend to have any sort of lacking with dynamic range, is when trying to get by without ample headroom, like trying to use difficult to drive speakers with just enough power.

The only other time I have thought about dynamic range, is when using speakers that are too powerful for the space, played too softly, as well as speakers too small for a space, played too loudly.

All good! I have, however, read and reread your post and I can't get there. I don't get where you are going or saying.

 

[Anglofun]

What are the units used for amplifier slew rate? I'll answer- Volts/microsecond. Do you honestly believe that you can hear any different between a common number of 50V/uS and 1V/uS? Audible sound goes to about 20KHz- if 1 microsecond = 1 cycle, it would mean that the frequency is 1 billion Hz.

Slew rate applies to amplifiers and the signal has no real mass- speakers do and they move. Slew rate is nothing that needs to be considered and you have been misled by people who talk about 'fast woofers'. Mids and tweeters are already much faster and most attempts to make them faster have caused the sound to suffer. Dynamic speakers are lightweight by design and the voice coil & magnet form a motor that's easily able to move the cone assembly without problems. They do have an upper frequency limit, so we use smaller drivers for higher frequencies.

How loud do you want the sound? Speaker sensitivity and ability to dissipate heat limit output as much as anything- once the voice coil's temperature rises, its resistance follows and eventually, thermal compression occurs. The only way to counter that is by increasing power (Voltage) and that immediately increases the VC's temperature until it fails.

Having been on forums of all kinds over the last 20 years, this conversation has been beaten to the point that the dead horse is now flatter than pancake.

Drivers do respond differently. Low efficient, high efficient, different materials, all that. All I am trying to do is get the same momentum of macro dynamics in the bottom end as I do above 150HZ.

To put it into better context, A LOWTHER driver ( ignoring its faults) in a read loaded horn configuration is dynamic (to my ear) from 80 hz - 15K. Easily, effortlessly.

Although I have a 4 way system and will never achieve the coherence of a single driver, I find my system to be very coherent. not LOWTHER coherent but very decent. Now all I am trying to do, is get a linear dynamic range from the bottom up instead of 150HZ and up. I am not so far off my goals I think.

MY OB's are cut this way

(SVS PB 2000 Pro) 17 HZ to 35 @ 24db per octave.
Supravox Rolls of naturally due to the baffle and its FS is 23hz but due to the size of my baffle that isn't happening. It cuts off at 150hz. Then the EV comes into play all the way to 3K, tweeter above.

 

[TLS Guy]

Having been on forums of all kinds over the last 20 years, this conversation has been beaten to the point that the dead horse is now flatter than pancake.

Drivers do respond differently. Low efficient, high efficient, different materials, all that. All I am trying to do is get the same momentum of macro dynamics in the bottom end as I do above 150HZ.

To put it into better context, A LOWTHER driver ( ignoring its faults) in a read loaded horn configuration is dynamic (to my ear) from 80 hz - 15K. Easily, effortlessly.

Although I have a 4 way system and will never achieve the coherence of a single driver, I find my system to be very coherent. not LOWTHER coherent but very decent. Now all I am trying to do, is get a linear dynamic range from the bottom up instead of 150HZ and up. I am not so far off my goals I think.

MY OB's are cut this way

(SVS PB 2000 Pro) 17 HZ to 35 @ 24db per octave.
Supravox Rolls of naturally due to the baffle and its FS is 23hz but due to the size of my baffle that isn't happening. It cuts off at 150hz. Then the EV comes into play all the way to 3K, tweeter above.

We can't teach you how to design a good speaker on a forum. It is clear to me that you understand little and are awash in falsehoods and misunderstandings. You have not grasped the most basic parts of the didactic knowledge required. You have to forget what you know and even more importantly what you think you know but don't.

Your education needs to start from the most basic elementary level. In other words you need a formal education, which is beyond the scope of a forum like this.

 

[Anglofun]

We can't teach you how to design a good speaker on a forum. It is clear to me that you understand little and are awash in falsehoods and misunderstandings. You have not grasped the most basic parts of the didactic knowledge required. You have to forget what you know and even more importantly what you think you know but don't.

Your education needs to start from the most basic elementary level. In other words you need a formal education, which is beyond the scope of a forum like this.

We can't teach you how to design a good speaker on a forum. It is clear to me that you understand little and are awash in falsehoods and misunderstandings. You have not grasped the most basic parts of the didactic knowledge required. You have to forget what you know and even more importantly what you think you know but don't.

Your education needs to start from the most basic elementary level. In other words you need a formal education, which is beyond the scope of a forum like this.

Snow white called and she wants Grumpy back. lol

 

[Anglofun]

There is an article from Audioholics that explains this, I found this through google AI.

The Audioholics article titled "Dynamic Linearity is Not the Same as Flatness" discusses the difference between dynamic linearity and frequency response flatness, explaining why a speaker's ability to handle a wide range of volume levels is different from having a flat frequency response.
Here is a summary of the main points from the article:

• Dynamic Linearity: This refers to a speaker's ability to reproduce a wide range of loud and soft sounds without distortion, covering a wide dynamic range.
• Flat Frequency Response: This refers to a speaker's ability to reproduce all frequencies within the audible range at the same volume level.
• The Difference: While a flat frequency response is desirable, it doesn't guarantee good dynamic linearity. A speaker can have a flat frequency response but still be poor at handling loud or soft signals, or a speaker with a good dynamic linearity might have a non-flat frequency response.
• Why it matters: Both specifications are important for a speaker's overall performance. A speaker that is weak in either area will not sound as good as one that is strong in both.

Hopefully the discussion can evolve from this.

 

[everettT]

There is an article from Audioholics that explains this, I found this through google AI.

The Audioholics article titled "Dynamic Linearity is Not the Same as Flatness" discusses the difference between dynamic linearity and frequency response flatness, explaining why a speaker's ability to handle a wide range of volume levels is different from having a flat frequency response.
Here is a summary of the main points from the article:

• Dynamic Linearity: This refers to a speaker's ability to reproduce a wide range of loud and soft sounds without distortion, covering a wide dynamic range.
• Flat Frequency Response: This refers to a speaker's ability to reproduce all frequencies within the audible range at the same volume level.
• The Difference: While a flat frequency response is desirable, it doesn't guarantee good dynamic linearity. A speaker can have a flat frequency response but still be poor at handling loud or soft signals, or a speaker with a good dynamic linearity might have a non-flat frequency response.
• Why it matters: Both specifications are important for a speaker's overall performance. A speaker that is weak in either area will not sound as good as one that is strong in both.

Hopefully the discussion can evolve from this.

Dumb question I guess, from your thread title, what type of dynamic range are you looking for below 40hz?

 

[ski2xblack]

@Anglofun think about this for a minute. As a whole, a multi way speaker's sensitivity will be constrained by the least sensitive driver. Similarly, that speaker's dynamic linearity will be constrained by the driver with the least dynamic range. One of the drivers will hit it's output limits first, unless by happenstance they all have the same limits.

If you linearize the whole speaker, it will result in dynamic linearity, up to the point where the driver with the least clean output capability shows it's limits, which, if you made an informed choice on the drivers involved will be beyond levels you listen at.

Now, linearity demands padding down more sensitive drivers to match the least sensitive one. The woofer you're using is less sensitive than the EV mid by several db. When you cobbled this all together, did you account for that? Did you model the crossover between the EV driver and the woofer, or measure after applying requisite filters to confirm it reflects the model? Based on the following, it appears you did not.

All I am trying to do is get the same momentum of macro dynamics in the bottom end as I do above 150HZ.

(SVS PB 2000 Pro) 17 HZ to 35 @ 24db per octave.
Supravox Rolls of naturally due to the baffle and its FS is 23hz but due to the size of my baffle that isn't happening. It cuts off at 150hz. Then the EV comes into play all the way to 3K, tweeter above.

It seems to me that (at the very least) you have not one but two crossovers to dial in: EV to woofer, and woofer to sub. Aside from that, your choice of drivers is bizarre, and how they're employed seems like a concept that emerged from the OB/dipole branch deep in the audiophool rabbit warren. Doesn't that 15" mid beam like a laser? At 3 khz, that ribbon tweeter won't. On top of matching amplitude, any considerations to directivity matching?

Even if you dial in the crossovers, I fearyou're still trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

 

[Anglofun]

Dumb question I guess, from your thread title, what type of dynamic range are you looking for below 40hz?

No, from say 20 to 150hz.

 

[Anglofun]

@Anglofun think about this for a minute. As a whole, a multi way speaker's sensitivity will be constrained by the least sensitive driver. Similarly, that speaker's dynamic linearity will be constrained by the driver with the least dynamic range. One of the drivers will hit it's output limits first, unless by happenstance they all have the same limits.

If you linearize the whole speaker, it will result in dynamic linearity, up to the point where the driver with the least clean output capability shows it's limits, which, if you made an informed choice on the drivers involved will be beyond levels you listen at.

Now, linearity demands padding down more sensitive drivers to match the least sensitive one. The woofer you're using is less sensitive than the EV mid by several db. When you cobbled this all together, did you account for that? Did you model the crossover between the EV driver and the woofer, or measure after applying requisite filters to confirm it reflects the model? Based on the following, it appears you did not.




It seems to me that (at the very least) you have not one but two crossovers to dial in: EV to woofer, and woofer to sub. Aside from that, your choice of drivers is bizarre, and how they're employed seems like a concept that emerged from the OB/dipole branch deep in the audiophool rabbit warren. Doesn't that 15" mid beam like a laser? At 3 khz, that ribbon tweeter won't. On top of matching amplitude, any considerations to directivity matching?

Even if you dial in the crossovers, I fearyou're still trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

My bizarre choice for the woofers has to do with the fact that these are open baffles, including the bass response up until around 50hz. So, the drivers need to be efficient to keep with the rest and have a high QTS as in above 0.5. There are not a million drivers out there with these characteristics.

So after listening and by the way this characteristic as I have said before is something I notice in many systems. Anyways, in my system right now I don't feel the uprising dynamic range from the bottom to top like I do from the top to the bottom. The downward range is smooth, cohesive and goes on forever. The other way around, it is like the swell just doesn't swell from the bottom up as much.

I will do more fine tuning and measurements.

 

[ski2xblack]

I really don't know what the hell you're talking about. Swell? Bottom to top vs top to bottom? Top and bottom of what exactly?

I think you may be veering wildly from speaker design (or lack therof) and into Fletcher-Munson equal loudness territory.

 

[everettT]

No, from say 20 to 150hz.

Ok, I'll ask another way, what type of headroom do you expect below 40hz and what music would require such dynamic headroom?

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok, I'll ask another way, what type of headroom do you expect below 40hz and what music would require such dynamic headroom?

Look this guy does not even know square one of speaker design. He has an open baffle arrangement, which is fraught with trouble, as you have to Eq out front to back cancellations. This requires very complex Eq. The driver he has selected seem to my unsuitable for open baffle. As I stated only one individual designed a respectable open baffle speaker. His papers on it a chocker full of advanced math equations, and I can be certain this bloke does not have the chops for that, and frankly nor do I.

 

[Anglofun]

Look this guy does not even know square one of speaker design. He has an open baffle arrangement, which is fraught with trouble, as you have to Eq out front to back cancellations. This requires very complex Eq. The driver he has selected seem to my unsuitable for open baffle. As I stated only one individual designed a respectable open baffle speaker. His papers on it a chocker full of advanced math equations, and I can be certain this bloke does not have the chops for that, and frankly nor do I.

I don't get the hostility. Move on to another thread already.