Dynamic Range 20-20K

[lovinthehd]

Well, I am there. so if adjustments are needed, I will do them live.

If we are talking about calibrating each driver to match the overall dynamic range, as in from the 17hz all the way to 20K, I think some of what I am hearing is that maybe they have the same dynamic range but because they are slower to get to the same level they seem less dynamic to the ear.

IOW's if you listen to a highly capable HORN as an example and compare the bass response of an enclosed woofer setup on the very same same speaker it doesn' keep up with horn.

I hope I am explaining this properly.

I'd still start as suggested by getting a measurement mic and using software like REW to analyze rather than trying to do things by ear. Dynamic range I think is a term you're not using correctly.

The more I look at the gear listed perhaps just clarification of the system (or is it multiple systems) and other associated gear being used (other than the originally listed SVS sub and drivers and now your addition of the amp and crossover).

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, I am there. so if adjustments are needed, I will do them live.

If we are talking about calibrating each driver to match the overall dynamic range, as in from the 17hz all the way to 20K, I think some of what I am hearing is that maybe they have the same dynamic range but because they are slower to get to the same level they seem less dynamic to the ear.

IOW's if you listen to a highly capable HORN as an example and compare the bass response of an enclosed woofer setup on the very same same speaker it doesn' keep up with horn.

I hope I am explaining this properly.

I can not really get a handle on what you are trying to do, but from what I can tell you are not at all well grounded in the physics of reproduction.

I had not heard of that driver 400-2000 EXC Bass speaker. However it is clearly a pro driver, and built for output and NOT bass extension. It has an electromagnetic and permanent magnet system.

There are three voltage options for the electromagnetic part of the magnet. I note is is a very low Qts driver and the higher the voltage to the electromagnetic system the lower the Qts. This is to be expected as there is an inverse relationship to flux density Qts and bass extension.

So, the bottom line is that in order to make any sense of this you need to understand at least the basics of speaker design, and box alignements.

 

[ski2xblack]

I mean the time it takes to reach its dynamic range (each driver)

Chris, I think he may be referring to step response/time alignment between drivers.

@Anglofun, in the speakers you're concocting, one of the drivers will hit it's limits before the others. Don't expect them all to have the same dynamic range. Like sensitivity of the overall design is limited by the least sensitive driver, dynamic range of the overall design is constrained by the driver with the lowest dynamic range.

This thread is wandering aimlessly, so let's rewind for a sec. Your first post:

Presently in my main system, I have open baffles that have an overall eff overal 103 db's. BUT at what frequency? I have also noticed that since adding some SVS subs to do part of the 1st octave and even before the first octave (17hz and up)they fill in the frequency response but dynamically and speed wise they aren't keeping up with the other drivers.

This suggests a timing problem, not a dynamic range problem. SVS subs employ dsp and have inherent delay because of that. I think I saw on ASR that it's in the 5 millisecond range. Since you're using the Yamaha AVR, you could compensate by adding delay (distance) to the speakers. Do that, check impulse, step response in REW, adjust delay as needed, remeasure, listen...hopefully you can get it sounding better.

The SVS sub.may be a dynamic range bottleneck too, but that's more a factor of which sub and room size.

 

[TLS Guy]

Chris, I think he may be referring to step response/time alignment between drivers.

@Anglofun, in the speakers you're concocting, one of the drivers will hit it's limits before the others. Don't expect them all to have the same dynamic range. Like sensitivity of the overall design is limited by the least sensitive driver, dynamic range of the overall design is constrained by the driver with the lowest dynamic range.

This thread is wandering aimlessly, so let's rewind for a sec. Your first post:

This suggests a timing problem, not a dynamic range problem. SVS subs employ dsp and have inherent delay because of that. I think I saw on ASR that it's in the 5 millisecond range. Since you're using the Yamaha AVR, you could compensate by adding delay (distance) to the speakers. Do that, check impulse, step response in REW, adjust delay as needed, remeasure, listen...hopefully you can get it sounding better.

The SVS sub.may be a dynamic range bottleneck too, but that's more a factor of which sub and room size.

There are multiple problems with the OPs system. The most significant is his use or open baffle speakers. There is no satisfactory passive crossover solution for open baffle speakers. They requires complex active crossovers. Personally I don't think they are a very good idea. The problem fundamentally is that if the baffle is large then you have diffraction effects. If it is small then you have front to back antiphase cancellations, that are very hard to deal with, and that is where active solutions become mandatory.
I think it is fair to say, that only the late Siegfried Linkwitz designed and produced a decent open baffle speakers, and its active crossovers were extremely complex.

 

[Anglofun]

Here are the pictures to help get a better visual

I took pics to show the alignment of the drivers. Also the plotting of Dominic Petoin and the rack to identify the xovers and amps.

The small EV horn is an idea from a parts express winner of a sound off. He added this to his OB's and figured why not. Adds depth to the stage, that's all.

 

[Anglofun]

I'd still start as suggested by getting a measurement mic and using software like REW to analyze rather than trying to do things by ear. Dynamic range I think is a term you're not using correctly.

The more I look at the gear listed perhaps just clarification of the system (or is it multiple systems) and other associated gear being used (other than the originally listed SVS sub and drivers and now your addition of the amp and crossover).

I have all that and have been playing with REW and the UMIK 1 for a little over a year.

I added pics to better explain than I seem to write.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have all that and have been playing with REW and the UMIK 1 for a little over a year.

I added pics to better explain than I seem to write.

I didn't see any measurements. DATS might even be better for a speaker system, or some modeling, etc. Pictures of hardware are of really no help, how you connected them would be better.

 

[Anglofun]

Chris, I think he may be referring to step response/time alignment between drivers.

@Anglofun, in the speakers you're concocting, one of the drivers will hit it's limits before the others. Don't expect them all to have the same dynamic range. Like sensitivity of the overall design is limited by the least sensitive driver, dynamic range of the overall design is constrained by the driver with the lowest dynamic range.

This thread is wandering aimlessly, so let's rewind for a sec. Your first post:

This suggests a timing problem, not a dynamic range problem. SVS subs employ dsp and have inherent delay because of that. I think I saw on ASR that it's in the 5 millisecond range. Since you're using the Yamaha AVR, you could compensate by adding delay (distance) to the speakers. Do that, check impulse, step response in REW, adjust delay as needed, remeasure, listen...hopefully you can get it sounding better.

The SVS sub.may be a dynamic range bottleneck too, but that's more a factor of which sub and room size.

My apologies for the thread becoming chaotic. Was not my intention.

Timing problem? from the sub to mains ok. but timing stops there, yes?

 

[Anglofun]

There are multiple problems with the OPs system. The most significant is his use or open baffle speakers. There is no satisfactory passive crossover solution for open baffle speakers. They requires complex active crossovers. Personally I don't think they are a very good idea. The problem fundamentally is that if the baffle is large then you have diffraction effects. If it is small then you have front to back antiphase cancellations, that are very hard to deal with, and that is where active solutions become mandatory.
I think it is fair to say, that only the late Siegfried Linkwitz designed and produced a decent open baffle speakers, and its active crossovers were extremely complex.

I know how OB's make no sense on paper. For me and my ears and listening preferences, I like them a lot.

 

[Anglofun]

I didn't see any measurements. DATS might even be better for a speaker system, or some modeling, etc. Pictures of hardware are of really no help, how you connected them would be better.

I have Frequency response charts. Didn't go much past that at this point. Doubt that will help.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have Frequency response charts. Didn't go much past that at this point. Doubt that will help.

Perhaps your FR graphs could be interesting. Depends on the details behind them.....

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I agree that the use of the term dynamic range is incorrect here. IMO, that would refer to the range between the quietest parts and loudest. A dynamic system should be able to reproduce it all in a realistic fashion.
IME with one, the sb2000 is not an amazingly dynamic subwoofer, meaning it’s not very impactful, albeit good sounding.
I would incrementally add some distance to the subwoofer channel to make it fire sooner and hopefully tighten up integration. I also think it’s possible that subwoofer delay times are fairly high as that looks like a very reflective space. I would guess lots of ringing. That will make a system sound muddy and “slow” Subwoofer placement might need to be addressed too. (Is there two?)
Also. Interesting system for sure.

 

[ski2xblack]

Timing problem? from the sub to mains ok. but timing stops there, yes?

It seems that timing from the subs to mains is a likely culprit from what you described hearing. I could be wrong, usually am, but it is something you can investigate and have the power to fix.

Don't worry about time alignment of the speakers, just a possible gross misalignment between them and the subs.

If you set the delays on the mains too far, or the subs too close-this is all relative, you will end up with pre-ringing (subs preceed your mains), where I suspect they presently lag the mains. You don't want the subs preceeding the mains, but you don't want them late to the party either. Somewhere in the middle, where they're properly synced with the mains is where you want to end up.

Again, this is all just a wild eyed guess.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Timing problem? from the sub to mains ok. but timing stops there, yes?

As far as impulse response yes, but i think there’s also some ringing going on(on top of sub/mains timing). That means you’re still hearing bass notes well after the fundamental has stopped. This could make you think the bass is “slow(hz are hz and can’t be fast or slow) and not keeping up, while it’s really just bass overhang.

 

[MrBoat]

I see this talked about a lot with reviewers/users either chasing, or being surprised by this 'dynamic range' a lot. Is this a condition mostly with surround sound? With two channel, dynamics-imaging and whatnot has been rather inescapable, at least with modern speakers designed in the last 25 years or so. I keep seeing this mentioned as a seemingly fleeting quality, epidemic even, and it makes me question what they must be doing to their systems otherwise or what the room is like.

I notice it more among those who chase more far-out methods/speakers, and in more trend-aesthetic, clinical settings, or installing over-engineered solutions that are seemingly looking for problems. I also see this mentioned with regard to amplifiers SQ, and I don't understand how an otherwise neutral amplifier with enough power could be lacking. This tends to cause me pause with a lot of equipment reviewers now, with their fruity assessments to these ends, such as hyping tubes over solid state, or even cable performance.

The reason I tend to question this in recent times is because I have a dozen different pairs of speakers and amps, including one pair that is sealed design, and they have been so good, that I tend to take these qualities for granted now. Any lacking in dynamic range anymore, seems to be more of an artifact of recording quality, than anything equipment related. About the only thing I end up looking out for is if a speaker rolls off low enough for full range use on it's own, or if it will need subs.

 

[PENG]

Makes perfect sense. How about measuring the speed in which it takes to get there?

Yes, you can also do that with REW, by measuring things like impulse response, but on the hardware side, you can look at the slew rate specs. Slew rate of modern electronics is generally a solved issue though.

Here's an easy to read an old article on Slew rate by Steve Munz of Audioholics.com, it included an Editorial by an Electronics Designer for Classe :

Slew Rate in Audio Amplifiers - What Does it Mean?

With the Classe gear you are using, I highly doubt you have to worry about "the speed in which it takes to get there", you just have to make sure your amps have more than enough voltage and current your speakers need to get your the maximum SPL you need at you seats without clipping, or excessively high distortions+noise.

 

[highfigh]

Makes perfect sense. How about measuring the speed in which it takes to get there?

Don't worry about speed unless the distance between the speakers and listener(s) is very large and even then, it would only matter for eliminating delays between multiple speaker cabinets, as in, a large venue show. In a room, the best way to see how well the output from all drivers is aligned in using impulse tests or wit pink niose, REW or some other accurate spectrum analysis, showing phase cancelations as deep dips in the response where the response at the crossover frequencies coincides.