DVD Dead in 18 Months? We Don't Think So.

gliz

gliz

Full Audioholic
One thing I find a little bit annoying, is that, in their zeal to dismiss BR, people come dangerously close to claiming Hi-Def TV is also a flop.

What do I mean? I'm referring to this whole "DVD was a much bigger advance in PQ over VHS than BR is over DVD." I just think that's false.

QUOTE]


has it been a while sence you have seen a VHS tape? each time you play a tape(of any kind) it gets progressivly worse it is just the nature of the media and a friction based playback system. there is no azamuth issues no picture jitter.( on dvd) even at 48i the dvd trumps VHS by a long shot. I have a DVD of Wallace and Gromet upconverted to 1080i, ther is one seen where you can see a thumprint in gromets head. I dont see how BD can really get thatmuch better. just an observation though man :)
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Blu-ray could have a very real chance of usurping DVD as the defacto standard for video production, but it sure as heck ain't gonna happen in the next 18 months (3 years into the format), but it will be far more obvious what is going to happen at that point.

DVD took over 5 years to generate more revenue than VHS, and DVD only last year had more players on the market than VHS. So, to think that Blu-ray, or any other HD medium, is realistically going to outpace this would be silly by anyone. In fact, with DVD player pricing and quality, combined with how many households actually own HD displays, it is clear that Blu-ray will have a much more difficult time becoming the next player.

That said, it is only fools who think that picture quality has anything to do with this.

Marketing is what sells more than anything else and Bose and Monster are companies that exist to market to consumers and consumers bend over backwards to give them money and to swear that those products are better. Blu-ray won't reach $30 a player anytime soon, but it is 1080p, and we all have heard from people who demand 1080p for their 32" display they are putting 15 feet from their couch.

It is not about informed consumers, it is about the vast majority of consumers who get sold on an idea even if it makes zero sense for them whatsoever. This is what definitely becomes the case for Blu-ray. Not only is the consumer given true 1080p, but it matches up with the past few years of 1080p advertising. It is a perfect fit, even if it gives very little to many consumers.

Now, the flip side ends up being the actual hardware pricing levels - which obviously need to come down. It won't be $300 players, but sub $100 players that really will make the determination. Yet, it isn't unrealistic to expect this to be the case. Master audio, HD audio, etc. DVD, DVD-A, SACD, upconversion, etc... It will all be standard in the players in a couple of years... along with profile 2.0 standard. Then the price just drops and drops. Software pricing will follow as sales volume increases.

But, none of it is a guarantee at all. It is a long term plan, or from me, a long term idea of what could happen if persistence pays off. Yet, the concept of consumers buying what they are sold is backed by fact, not by wishful thinking. The question of whether or not HD media will replace DVD is going to be more of a 'when' instead of an 'if' - and what replaces it, or what combination will replace it, is most definitely in question.

Yet, I have little doubt that it will be replaced... at some point... eventually... by something. :D ;)
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
You guys understand BD prices will fall right? When consumers don't buy $30 discs manufacturers will drop msrp, forget competition from another format, the economy will be a bigger factor than HD DVD would ever have been. LD players were being sold next to VHS players, who survived? Which was the better format? What did LD "in" can "do in" BD, consumers not adopting. Today, economic hardship and a recession will be the biggest hurdles for BD to jump. We, the fans are inconsequential in the big picture, we don't make a dent, all we do is start the ball rolling, create hype and hopefully the mainstream population will awaken to the next "big thing" in this case BD. Or so the best case scenario goes.

Also, don't forget BD has VOD to think about, not now, but definitely in about 3 years time.
 
jcPanny

jcPanny

Audioholic Ninja
No clear "winner"

Just because HD-DVD gave up doesn't mean that Bluray has "won" anything. They could still easily become some obscure format (like DVD-A and SACD) that happens to be the transport for the PS3.

With less competition, I don't see any motivation to drop the prices which will be necessary for the players to reach any kind of critical mass. Also, with newly anounced Sony BluRay players lacking features like DTS Master Audio decoding, it doesn't look the feature set and profiles will be figured out any time soon.

Joe Consumer wont just keep buying another $500 BluRay player every year because the old one is obsolete. In the mean time, downloadable content might provide a better solution that doesn't require Profiles, firmware updates, etc.
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
You guys understand BD prices will fall right?
Of course strat. The question is when, and to what degree? As others have noted, there are few if any BD sales right now at b&m stores. BD is not your friend:they are the taker of your money. I'll take that statement back if within 90 days they drop the msrp of BD titles from $30-$35 to $20...I just don't see that happening. $35.00 is an awful lot of money for a movie. Me? I'm closing in on 40 HD titles...and only $170 out of pocket. Were that BD, I'd have 4,5 or 6 titles. I know, I know. There are sales offering 1, 2 or 3 BD titles occasionally at $10 or $15. The question is, will those sales cease (or slow to a trickle) now that HD is not there egging that price war on?
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
Joe Consumer wont just keep buying another $500 BluRay player every year because the old one is obsolete.
jc: Joe Consumer won't spend $500 on his first BD player...the mass of the BD players sold are to "nuts" like us. Nor will Joe Consumer spend more than $10-$15 per title. The "niche" has gotten and is getting increasingly "nichier." :eek:
 
J

JackT

Audioholic
One thing I find a little bit annoying, is that, in their zeal to dismiss BR, people come dangerously close to claiming Hi-Def TV is also a flop.

What do I mean? I'm referring to this whole "DVD was a much bigger advance in PQ over VHS than BR is over DVD." I just think that's false.

QUOTE]


has it been a while sence you have seen a VHS tape? each time you play a tape(of any kind) it gets progressivly worse it is just the nature of the media and a friction based playback system. there is no azamuth issues no picture jitter.( on dvd) even at 48i the dvd trumps VHS by a long shot. I have a DVD of Wallace and Gromet upconverted to 1080i, ther is one seen where you can see a thumprint in gromets head. I dont see how BD can really get thatmuch better. just an observation though man :)
To be honest, it HAS been quite awhile since I have seen VHS, so I may just be forgetting the bad old days. On the other hand, I don't recall having an OMG moment the first time I saw a DVD, either.
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
On the other hand, I don't recall having an OMG moment the first time I saw a DVD, either.
That happened to me Jack one memorable night...albeit via HD...on a 120" screen at 1080p/24Hz. That's WOW factor. :p
 
A

allargon

Audioholic General
One thing I find a little bit annoying, is that, in their zeal to dismiss BR, people come dangerously close to claiming Hi-Def TV is also a flop.
Many people I know with flat panels bought them just to say they have a flat panel. I also know many people with 25"/27"/32" SD CRT's in the main room, too. These are professionals making six figure or (often) higher salaries. Even a techie I know says she will eventually get Blu-Ray when the price comes down to like $50 for her 26" 768p LCD. :rolleyes: She doesn't even have rabbit ears or a cable box hooked up to the thing.

What will happen is what always happens. In likely 3-5 years (not 18 months), studios will claim that DVD is slipping/stagnating while Blu-Ray is growing and force the transition once players get cheap enough. There are many people that will/may never go to high definition. So many people forget that Feb. 2009 is a transition to DIGITAL OTA not high def for non-low power stations.

Does Blu-Ray even outsell VHS now? This time last year Blu-Ray and HD DVD combined didn't even outsell VHS.
 
Biggiesized

Biggiesized

Senior Audioholic
Unless you have a progressive display, aren't DVD and VHS the same? 480i? If you have a progressive display, then you can watch 480p, and that IS much better. But if you have a progressive display, it's probably an HD set, and I don't see how you can deny that HD is SPECTACULAR compared to SD.
Sorry, but analog video tape is only about 330 lines of resolution.
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
If BD does not lower their prices they will fail just as LD did. They will come down though and I think sooner rather than later too.
 
Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
Whether or not people are wowed by BD also depends on what movie they first see and what they see it on. I've seen quite a few BD movies that wow me and an equal amount that don't seem dramatically better than the upconverted SD version. As far as the sound goes, when my old room mate was over the other day he noticed how nice the pq is, but wasn't that impressed with the sound over his old tube tv. (there's no accounting for taste:rolleyes:)

Jack
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
yup, unless BD's sell for 10 bucks with players selling for 100 bucks or less RIGHT NOW, it's impossible for SD DVD to die within 18 months.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
Of course strat. The question is when, and to what degree? As others have noted, there are few if any BD sales right now at b&m stores. BD is not your friend:they are the taker of your money. I'll take that statement back if within 90 days they drop the msrp of BD titles from $30-$35 to $20...I just don't see that happening. $35.00 is an awful lot of money for a movie. Me? I'm closing in on 40 HD titles...and only $170 out of pocket. Were that BD, I'd have 4,5 or 6 titles. I know, I know. There are sales offering 1, 2 or 3 BD titles occasionally at $10 or $15. The question is, will those sales cease (or slow to a trickle) now that HD is not there egging that price war on?
John I believe as the economy falters, the market will dictate where CE and a host of other sectors are going. I read an article the other day stating that plasma and lcd prices were about to go flat with hardly a discount till end of year. I don't believe it. The market rules when it comes to price fluctuation and who rules the market? The consumer. How long? Anyone can guess? I say prices will drop in small increments every quarter, then on Q4 you'll see the biggest adjustment. Remember last year's numbers were very soft and this year will probably be softer, if Blu-ray doesn't get into gear the mainstream won't adopt, CE is not a priority outside our circles. I'm beginning to feel the so-called "malaise" of the late 80s when the recession slowly washed in, people are really concerned about job stability. Blu-ray just happens to be in a place and time when the economic cycle is in flux and depending on how high the pendulum swings toward recession, this might all be a moot point. As for me, I'm waiting till end of year before I make a decision to buy, I sat out the war, what's a few more months in the scheme of things, besides I have my new audio library to keep me busy, when I judge the time to be right I'll get a BD player, maybe a Panny or that new Oppo that's going to be launched before year's end.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
Of course strat. The question is when, and to what degree? As others have noted, there are few if any BD sales right now at b&m stores. BD is not your friend:they are the taker of your money. I'll take that statement back if within 90 days they drop the msrp of BD titles from $30-$35 to $20...I just don't see that happening. $35.00 is an awful lot of money for a movie. Me? I'm closing in on 40 HD titles...and only $170 out of pocket. Were that BD, I'd have 4,5 or 6 titles. I know, I know. There are sales offering 1, 2 or 3 BD titles occasionally at $10 or $15. The question is, will those sales cease (or slow to a trickle) now that HD is not there egging that price war on?
i've never seen BD's sell for 30-35 bucks.

http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=amb_link_6333352_1?ie=UTF8&node=387547011,387547011&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=left-2&pf_rd_r=058N3HK6SC5XM8AN5V64&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=367887101&pf_rd_i=193640011

new release BD's are around 22-25
old ones are 20 and less

free shipping too.
 
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J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
Well, I don't know what's going on in Manila mike, but as my comment alluded to, b&m stores (where Joe Consumer shops) here in the states have the vast majority of their BD's at msrp...and that's a fact (contrary to the end of the war hopes).

$10 right now!? $100 right now!? I never stated either of those things, but I did make a simple observation...and my commentary is that if the prices don't go down...and stay down, BD will forever remain "nichy."
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
Well, I don't know what's going on in Manila mike, but as my comment alluded to, b&m stores (where Joe Consumer shops) here in the states have the vast majority of their BD's at msrp...and that's a fact (contrary to the end of the war hopes).

$10 right now!? $100 right now!? I never stated either of those things, but I did make a simple observation...and my commentary is that if the prices don't go down...and stay down, BD will forever remain "nichy."
10bucks and 100bucks was not directed at you. it was directed at the BD in general to be able to KILL SD DVD within 18 months.

the 20-25 bucks was directed at you, it's amazon.com ... im actually the foreigner tapping the unlimited market you guys in the US have. don't buy from B&M's, buy online, that should give a message to the B&M's that it's easier and cheaper to buy online.
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
John I believe as the economy falters, the market will dictate where CE and a host of other sectors are going. I read an article the other day stating that plasma and lcd prices were about to go flat with hardly a discount till end of year. I don't believe it. The market rules when it comes to price fluctuation and who rules the market? The consumer. How long? Anyone can guess? I say prices will drop in small increments every quarter, then on Q4 you'll see the biggest adjustment. Remember last year's numbers were very soft and this year will probably be softer, if Blu-ray doesn't get into gear the mainstream won't adopt, CE is not a priority outside our circles. I'm beginning to feel the so-called "malaise" of the late 80s when the recession slowly washed in, people are really concerned about job stability. Blu-ray just happens to be in a place and time when the economic cycle is in flux and depending on how high the pendulum swings toward recession, this might all be a moot point. As for me, I'm waiting till end of year before I make a decision to buy, I sat out the war, what's a few more months in the scheme of things, besides I have my new audio library to keep me busy, when I judge the time to be right I'll get a BD player, maybe a Panny or that new Oppo that's going to be launched before year's end.

Huh. :confused: And all this time I had you pegged for a BD fan. Forgive me. :p

Really though, of course prices will decrease. And of course as they decrease, sales will increase. But is it enough to take over SD? I'll tune in quarterly :rolleyes:. I'm of the opinion that until BD approaches the price of SD (hardware and software), there will be no real competition (with the big boys).

And I'm willing to bet you strat that you won't wait til Christmas if discs start selling for $10 or $15 and players for $100 or $200. But then, I've been wrong once before...;) Anyhow, I admire your deliberateness and patience...things that have been lost on our younglings. :p
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
10bucks and 100bucks was not directed at you. it was directed at the BD in general to be able to KILL SD DVD within 18 months.
I know it wasn't mike. My faux pas for responding to two separate posts within one of my own...forgive me.

the 20-25 bucks was directed at you, it's amazon.com ... im actually the foreigner tapping the unlimited market you guys in the US have. don't buy from B&M's, buy online, that should give a message to the B&M's that it's easier and cheaper to buy online.
I agree that's where the deals are to be had, but the mass market is not about to trade in their SD's and purchase BD hardware and software en masse online...they just aren't. And the mass market will ultimately decide this decision...not you or I. :eek:
 
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