Dual 10's or 12's for 2000 cu ft ?

[mazersteven]

Why is the OP only worried about driver size? How about Cabinet Design, Cabinet Size, the Ports. All the things the Drive needs to perform.

 

[mazersteven]

I sit about 6' from 2 13.5" drivers. Works great. THX Ultra rated.

Why so far away? My dual 12's sit right next to my chair.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I am not sure what you are seeing in those designs that makes you think they are so great. The only positive is that they should have a lot of displacement for the given footprint. So you have four 10"s in a cabinet with just 300 watts for the whole deal? I'm guessing those don't have much in the way of a motor. Contrast that with the Monolith 10" motor which is nearly as big as the cone itself:

The Tekton woofers probably don't have much in the way of excursion ability and likely have a relatively high Fs for a subwoofer driver, especially compared to "crappy" subs like the Monolith 10". They probably have a lot of output ability above 60Hz.

The thing is, for a subwoofer with a high Fs to have low bass in a sealed enclosure, you would have to EQ the response. In doing so, you majorly jack up the group delay, and I guarantee you it's going to be a lot worse than this "crappy" sub:

Here is something else to consider: if I asked Monoprice to send me a sub in order to test it to make the performance measurements public, they would have any sub I ask for on its way to me by the end of the day. You think Tekton would react the same way? Monoprice wants public exposure of their products' performance because they are confident in their products. There was one reviewer who attempted measurements of a Tekton review product that turned into a debacle with Tekton, and as far as I know, that review was pulled down.

And that the whole thing only weighs 94lbs is telling.

 

[Wabbit]

That monoprice driver and enclosure material is one of the big reasons I've swayed from SVS; even with their snazy bluetooth interface.

 

[Truthslayer]

That monoprice driver and enclosure material is one of the big reasons I've swayed from SVS; even with their snazy bluetooth interface.

Yes, the build quality is quite impressive. Some say they are over built (to me that's not possible) and not being able to overdrive them is a nice feature to have.
I don't want to sway you either way 10's vs 12's. Of course 12's will give you more output. But the Monolith 10's are not your normal 10's. The value to performance ratio in my opinion is pretty darn good.

Good luck on your decision. Be sure to let us know what you decided to go with.

 

[Audiosaur]

I'd do this http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk5HPDual.html

 

[lovinthehd]

As to the THX rating, they're trying to approximate volume of space its appropriate for. Audioholics has this type of rating too https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size

You could just go diy....that should yield better results than that Tekton stuff easily enough.

 

[pcosmic]

A subwoofer would need to be 14 feet long to function as a line array for 80Hz, and for lower frequencies it would have to be much longer. A subwoofer line array basically can not be done in a domestic living space.

I am thinking back to a GR Research point source/line array i had for a few months. A total of eight 6.5 inch drivers were handling from 160 hz well down to 40 hz and pounded the living daylights out of my room (above ~160 hz, it crossed over into 2 midrange drivers). Eight driver load sharing, huge dynamics, low distortion, very quick settling, most advantages of a true line source, (which i however would not wanna deal with anyways) This is with much smaller 6.5 inch drivers.

Why the hell would i need a 14ft length array just to get down to 80 hz???!!! I bet you could diy one just fine with a few 10 inch drivers (nowhere near as big as you state) and power it with a couple of Crown XLS 2502s or similar and pound down to 20 hz.

 

[shadyJ]

I am thinking back to a GR Research point source/line array i had for a few months. A total of eight 6.5 inch drivers were handling from 160 hz well down to 40 hz and pounded the living daylights out of my room (above ~160 hz, it crossed over into 2 midrange drivers). Eight driver load sharing, huge dynamics, low distortion, very quick settling, most advantages of a true line source, (which i however would not wanna deal with anyways) This is with much smaller 6.5 inch drivers.

Why the hell would i need a 14ft length array just to get down to 80 hz???!!! I bet you could diy one just fine with a few 10 inch drivers (nowhere near as big as you state) and power it with a couple of Crown XLS 2502s or similar and pound down to 20 hz.

Line array theory dictates length and driver diameter. In order to emulate a line source acoustic emitter, the array must be a wavelength long of the lowest frequency it is trying to reproduce. An 80Hz wavelength is 14 feet long.

 

[Wabbit]

Just saw that the Monolith M12-S is only $100 then the ported 10 on sale. From how I interpret the specs, that sealed 12 sits between the 10 and ported 12 in a smaller package. For a smaller space, that might just be the ticket. Hm....

 

[shadyJ]

Just saw that the Monolith M12-S is only $100 then the ported 10 on sale. From how I interpret the specs, that sealed 12 sits between the 10 and ported 12 in a smaller package. For a smaller space, that might just be the ticket. Hm....

The sealed 12" will have more mid-bass output. The ported 10" will have more deep bass output.

 

[ryanosaur]

Just saw that the Monolith M12-S is only $100 then the ported 10 on sale. From how I interpret the specs, that sealed 12 sits between the 10 and ported 12 in a smaller package. For a smaller space, that might just be the ticket. Hm....

Buy ported. You have much more open space for those subs to handle than you realize. While you do not need to 'pressurize' the entire open air space your Sub will be open to, you'll have more success, especially in lower bass, with the output from the ported subs.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes....you can do it!

 

[Wabbit]

The sealed 12" will have more mid-bass output. The ported 10" will have more deep bass output.

Not to derail a thread, but I sometimes wonder which is better (if you had to choose) ambivalent to what the space may accentuate. In my case, I'm pairing 2 with with real good book shelves B&W CDM 1NT's with upgraded cross overs. I recall hearing a crazy expensive B&W nautalis rotel system once. A guy played a single snare drum and kick on it at rather normal level. If I didn't have eyes, I'd swear the real thing was 2 feet in front of me and slightly to the left. My reaction was, "that was weird". After a career in Hollywood, I can tell you big bass sells tickets. It's cool. I put bass shakers in my seat. I can also tell you half the sound designers source the same libraries and none of it makes a bad movie any better.

The sealed 12's with ext eq seem nice and flat to 20hz. Doubt I'd here the THD difference that low. In my case, it's a second floor and there's always the neighbor factor. Wish one could demo these things in 2020 and the internet direct age. There's no solid review of the sealed version, so one can only extrapolate from monoprice's details and the plugged ported review here. Whatever I go with, I gotta wait till the elves catch up with demand.

Hope Santa brings you all the best.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

For me ported wins every time.
FWIW, you can test out SVS and rsl subs risk free.

 

[shadyJ]

Doubt I'd here the THD difference that low. In my case, it's a second floor and there's always the neighbor factor.

You absolutely would hear the difference in THD in deep bass that a sealed subwoofer can make when it is pushed hard enough. It is not a subtle thing. All other things being equal, a ported sub can have 2 to 4 times as much deep bass headroom before running into lot of distortion.

 

[Wabbit]

You absolutely would hear the difference in THD in deep bass that a sealed subwoofer can make when it is pushed hard enough. It is not a subtle thing. All other things being equal, a ported sub can have 2 to 4 times as much deep bass headroom before running into lot of distortion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, human hearing is 20-17 for an average adult, no one listens at reference level, and for the THX ratings, these things can't be over pushed? So the difference between 9.5% THD and 17.1% is clearly distinguishable at 20Hz? What is deep bass? 16-25Hz?

 

[shadyJ]

Human hearing extends below 20Hz. People who quote a 20Hz low end for human hearing are simplifying by rounding to a nice number. The reality of this subject is complex.

It's true that the THX certification prohibits the sub from being pushed into lots of distortion, but that is for the THX operating mode which limits lower bass headroom. The performance is diminished by moving to a sealed subwoofer, as an example, the ported Monolith 12" earns a THX Ultra certification while its sealed variant can only get a THX Select certification. Another thing is THX does seem to allow more distortion below 25 Hz. THX's range of interest looks to be mainly 25Hz and above.

The difference between 9.5% THD and 17.1% at 20Hz would very much be audible. But what would make a greater difference is the composition of the harmonics: if that THD was composed of higher-order harmonics rather than lower order, its audibility would be much greater.

By deep bass with respect to these subs, I mean port-generated output, which would be like 16Hz to maybe 40Hz with port contribution lessening as frequency rises from port tuning frequency.

 

[Hblackheart]

After having a good laugh over the arguments going on here, Just build your own. 2 passive radiators and 1 sub in a sealed box makes a mean combo. Build triangle cabs and build up vs building out. More space, no compression, option to fit 18's in there cause your not taking up so much space. This is good clean bass with very little distortion given a good subwoofer with some power to back it up. If you go a bit larger than you need, its easy to turn it down a notch rather than always wishing you had gone larger because you don't have enough oomph....
Need more mid bass slam? Build a box just for slam. Trying to get 1 sub box to do double duty never gives you enough output to be happy. Headroom is always a good thing. Not having enough..... sucks.

 

[Wabbit]

Ya might actually be on to something there. I could take out the plate amps in my two ASW 675s and power them with a Behringer NX amp. Then use a single larger sub in the back of the room crossed over lower. It's not like I have rows of seats to even out.