DTS-HD and Dolby Digital TrueHD

[FSUguy]

So I have been ridiculously torn on what receiver to buy to compliment my Klipsch Ref Series Speakers. First I started with the Yamaha V661, then thought I should look into getting a receiver that can support the new forms of DD TrueHD and DTS-HD. I looked at the Denon 2308CI, but found that it doesn't even support these formats and only has 2 HDMI inputs. Then there's the 2808, which supports the new formats, but only 2 HDMI's again. What about the 3808; supports the new formats, 4 HDMI's, and Network capable!!! But looking to be out of my price point.

My questions:
I have read that as long as you have a receiver that can receive multichannel PCM, which I think all the Denon's can do, then you can let your Next Gen player take care of decoding the new formats, as long as you use HDMI...any thoughts? Also, how good are these new formats and is it worth its salt to buy now to be capable later? If not, maybe i should just stick with the Yammy V661, although I have read amazing reviews of the Audyssey setup, the 1080p Upconversion, and audio fixing for mp3's, etc.
Edit: Would it be worth getting one of the higher end Denons to take advantage of pre outs for another amplifier later down the line?

Ahhhhh, so much to consider and as a noob, I could def use some help!!

Thanks

 

[gus6464]

If you already have the 661 keep it. No need for the Denon with your speakers. And the network capability is not all it's cracked up to be especially for the premium you pay.

 

[FSUguy]

If you already have the 661 keep it. No need for the Denon with your speakers. And the network capability is not all it's cracked up to be especially for the premium you pay.

I don't have the v661 yet, I just started looking at it first. I'm liking what I read about the Denon Audyssey set up, especially for my room and the full 1080p upconversion. Is it worth it? Also any final decision on say the 661, or the Denon's passing the multichannel PCM and letting the Blu Ray do the work for decoding?

 

[fmw]

Yes, the players will decode the audio. At the price level of receiver you are considering, they will decode the audio just as well if not better than the receiver. I wouldn't worry about until you get into more expensive units.

By the way, the new codecs are as scarce as hen's teeth in HD movies. Most of them just have Dolby Digital. A few have DTS. I can't remember ever seeing the latest codecs on one. Perhaps I just missed it.

 

[Cavediver]

Spend the extra money and get the receiver that will decode the lossless audio. When the player decodes the lossless tracks, it sends the audio to the receiver as pcm. A properly mastered DTS HD Master Audio or Dolby True HD audio track bitstreamed to a newer receiver via HDMI is the absolute best surround sound movie audio experience you will ever hear. There are quite a large number of Blu-Ray movies with a DTS HD Master Audio and HD DVD's with Dolby True HD tracks. I've come to appreaciate DTS HD Master Audio so much that it's the first thing I look for when purchasing a new Blu-Ray movie.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Check out the Onkyo 705 and 805. Shoponkyo.com has them with full warranty refurbed for great prices every now than then.

 

[Seth=L]

Check out the Onkyo 705 and 805. Shoponkyo.com has them with full warranty refurbed for great prices every now than then.

I second this recommendation.

I would not be concerned about the upscaling features of any receivers if you have a Blu-ray player. The Blu-ray player will handle the upscaling of SD DVD better than the Faroudja scalers found on the Denons.

With that said, the Yamaha would be a fine choice, as well as the Onkyos. The TX-SR805 is one of the best value receivers available IMO. Another great value receiver to look at would be the Harman Kardon AVR-247.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The upcoming $500-$600 Panasonic DMP-BD50 blu-ray player is suppose to be able to internally decode DTS-MA and TrueHD and send them via PCM to your receiver with either HDMI or Analog 5.1/7.1 inputs. The quality of PCM vs. Bitstream DTS-MA/TrueHD will be the same.

 

[darien87]

I'd save the money and get the 661. I have it and it works great for uncompressed audio tracks via the PS 3.

You mentioned getting a Denon for preouts, but the 661 has preouts also. I use it to go to my Acurus 3-channel amp.

 

[David Gaudreau]

Spend the extra money and get the receiver that will decode the lossless audio. When the player decodes the lossless tracks, it sends the audio to the receiver as pcm. A properly mastered DTS HD Master Audio or Dolby True HD audio track bitstreamed to a newer receiver via HDMI is the absolute best surround sound movie audio experience you will ever hear. There are quite a large number of Blu-Ray movies with a DTS HD Master Audio and HD DVD's with Dolby True HD tracks. I've come to appreaciate DTS HD Master Audio so much that it's the first thing I look for when purchasing a new Blu-Ray movie.

Gosh I wish I could come and have a listen to your setup. Can you believe that no one at the CES show had this setup playing. I can't wait to hear all my gear set up and reproducing the DTS MA. Is it really that good compared to Normal lets say DTS 6.1 ES?

 

[jostenmeat]

Although just a few, every consumer and/or pro review I've read regarding unpacking in receiver vs player says that it sounds superior when done by receiver. I am well aware that its just unpacking, not "decoding", and that in theory it makes no difference. But I haven't read otherwise in subjective testing, including with CNET reviewers, fwiw.

One other consideration is if you are of the smaller proportion of folks with 7.1, make sure that your receiver can matrix multi-PCM for the rears. For instance, the Onkyo 605 cannot, but anything up the line can.

To my knowledge so far, the only discs that I know with both a lossless codec AND multi-ch PCM are Spidey 3, and 300. Im sure there's more, and Im sure they are all on the 50 GB discs.

Fox has 28 titles, and every one of them uses Master Audio to my knowledge. Warner Bros, OTOH, has only vanilla DD for the great majority of their 51 titles on BD.

I just received my first large orders of BDs. 5 have MA (2 are 6.1, 2 are 7.1), and 7 are PCM. I traded an SD dvd for the Spidey 3 BD, and its the only one I have with T-HD.

Most BD's are PCM, but there are a lot with the codecs. Here's a good link, and play with the "filter" to get a better idea:

http://www.blu-raystats.com/stats.php

 

[jostenmeat]

BTW, none of my collection has only DD or DTS. They all have lossless audio. The problem is... I don't have a HDMI pre/pro or receiver to handle them yet!

(my player only bitstreams).

 

[allargon]

Although just a few, every consumer and/or pro review I've read regarding unpacking in receiver vs player says that it sounds superior when done by receiver. I am well aware that its just unpacking, not "decoding", and that in theory it makes no difference. But I haven't read otherwise in subjective testing, including with CNET reviewers, fwiw.

Here's one on Ultimate AV magazine that suggests it's all smoke and mirrors.

http://www.guidetohometheater.com/surroundsoundpreampprocessors/1007anthem/index1.html

As far as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio goes, I know these are being sold as compelling events for which you should upgrade your AVR or pre/pro. This is false advertising. There is no performance advantage whatsoever we can see to decoding these formats in the AVR, and to the contrary there are some serious disadvantages. If you decode in the AVR or pre/pro you lose all secondary audio streams and cripple the interactivity features of both Blu-ray and HD DVD, and for no good reason.

And secondary audio isn't just obnoxious button click sounds in the menus. If you select a Picture-In-Picture stream, you'll get picture with no sound. Kinda takes the fun out of it. And again, there is no performance advantage to decoding in the AVR or pre/pro. As soon as an AVR or pre/pro decodes a compressed stream it in fact turns it into PCM for processing. We've heard no qualitative issues, so far, from doing this conversion in the player.

Part of me wonders if people doing decoding in the player are using the player's analog outputs vs. sending PCM over HDMI. I would definitely understand a receiver having superior DAC's to a player. There are a lot of seemingly well informed people that think receiver decoding is markedly better. There are lot of discussions on AVS regarding that. I can't really say for sure, since I don't have the equipment (3 Blu-Ray and 2 HD DVD players plus multiple receivers and pre/pro's in a controlled listening room) to test it.

 

[Cavediver]

Gosh I wish I could come and have a listen to your setup. Can you believe that no one at the CES show had this setup playing. I can't wait to hear all my gear set up and reproducing the DTS MA. Is it really that good compared to Normal lets say DTS 6.1 ES?

You're welcome to come and listen anytime, but looking at where you live, I think it would be a pretty long drive. For what it's worth my set-up is as follows:

Integra 9.8 pre/pro (Audyssey room correction enabled and in use)
D-Sonic Magnum 2000-5 5 channel amp http://www.d-sonic.net/
(I'm using the balanced outputs on the 9.8 to the balanced inputs on the amp using el cheapo Guitar Center XLR cables)
Panasonic DMP-BD30K Blu-Ray player (set to bitstream audio to the 9.8 via HDMI and video set at 1080p/24)
Toshiba HD-A35 HD DVD player (set to bitstream audio to the 9.8 via HDMI and video set at 1080p/24)
Sony el cheapo upscaling SD DVD player (set to output video at 1080i)
Comcast SA 8300HD DVR (set to output video at 1080i)
All DVD players and the DVR are connected to the 9.8 via HDMI
All 4 HDMI inputs on the 9.8 are used up
One HDMI cable output to a Sony KDS60A3000 TV
All HDMI cables are el cheapo Sony playstation HDMI cables
Front LR speakers: Dali Helicon 400
Center chanel speaker: Paradigm CC-370 (will be replaced soon with a Dali Helicon C-200)
Surround speakers: Paradigm AMS-150R in ceiling
SVS PB12 Plus/2 subwoofer
All speaker cables are el cheapo homemade cables made with Home Depo 12/2 speaker wire and radio shack banana plugs
Logitech Squeezebox hooked up to my home network via cat5 cable (I'm not using the wireless because it just seems to sound better via the hard wired connection).
The Squeezebox is hooked up to the 9.8 via an el cheapo Radio Shack optical cable.
All music files are stored on a couple of 500 gb usb drives connected to one of my computers and are in either full resolution wav or flac format.
Logitech Harmony 880 universal remote to control them all.

For what it's worth Dolby True HD and most PCM tracks sound pretty good also. But, there's just something special about the DTS HD Master Audio tracks. And as far as I'm concerned, DTS HD Master Audio really is much better than normal DTS es tracks on SD DVDs. The clarity, detail, and surround engagement is just awesome.

 

[jostenmeat]

Nice system!! I've got the same BD and HD players. I would love me a 9.8, but I dunno. I might go Onkyo 705 + 2-ch pre w/ HT pass for the same money, or slightly more. I am at a loss, still. Love that tv too, wish I had one

Im jealous you get to access the MA and I don't.

 

[FSUguy]

So am I understanding the consensus is that letting the receiver do the decoding is the way to go? I did read in a few places that multichannel PCM gives you just the same quality as letting the receiver do the decoding but it seems ya'll think there is a noticeable difference.

You're welcome to come and listen anytime, but looking at where you live, I think it would be a pretty long drive. For what it's worth my set-up is as follows:

Integra 9.8 pre/pro (Audyssey room correction enabled and in use)
D-Sonic Magnum 2000-5 5 channel amp http://www.d-sonic.net/
(I'm using the balanced outputs on the 9.8 to the balanced inputs on the amp using el cheapo Guitar Center XLR cables)
Panasonic DMP-BD30K Blu-Ray player (set to bitstream audio to the 9.8 via HDMI and video set at 1080p/24)
Toshiba HD-A35 HD DVD player (set to bitstream audio to the 9.8 via HDMI and video set at 1080p/24)
Sony el cheapo upscaling SD DVD player (set to output video at 1080i)
Comcast SA 8300HD DVR (set to output video at 1080i)
All DVD players and the DVR are connected to the 9.8 via HDMI
All 4 HDMI inputs on the 9.8 are used up
One HDMI cable output to a Sony KDS60A3000 TV
All HDMI cables are el cheapo Sony playstation HDMI cables
Front LR speakers: Dali Helicon 400
Center chanel speaker: Paradigm CC-370 (will be replaced soon with a Dali Helicon C-200)
Surround speakers: Paradigm AMS-150R in ceiling
SVS PB12 Plus/2 subwoofer
All speaker cables are el cheapo homemade cables made with Home Depo 12/2 speaker wire and radio shack banana plugs
Logitech Squeezebox hooked up to my home network via cat5 cable (I'm not using the wireless because it just seems to sound better via the hard wired connection).
The Squeezebox is hooked up to the 9.8 via an el cheapo Radio Shack optical cable.
All music files are stored on a couple of 500 gb usb drives connected to one of my computers and are in either full resolution wav or flac format.
Logitech Harmony 880 universal remote to control them all.

For what it's worth Dolby True HD and most PCM tracks sound pretty good also. But, there's just something special about the DTS HD Master Audio tracks. And as far as I'm concerned, DTS HD Master Audio really is much better than normal DTS es tracks on SD DVDs. The clarity, detail, and surround engagement is just awesome.

How did you do your networking? I was looking at doing some kind of network receiver to play my digital media from my Macbook Pro, but the networking receivers were getting pretty pricey and my understanding is that they don't work to well.

Regardless of getting a receiver w/ or w/o the new audio formats, are the Denon's worth it for the Audyssey Room correction as compared to a Yamaha or Pioneer? And since I'm not going to be setting up a 7.1 anytime soon (room/$$$ constraints), will any of these new formats really change a 5.1 system?

Thanks

 

[Cavediver]

So am I understanding the consensus is that letting the receiver do the decoding is the way to go? I did read in a few places that multichannel PCM gives you just the same quality as letting the receiver do the decoding but it seems ya'll think there is a noticeable difference.

I believe that the receiver or pre/pro should do the work as that is what it was designed to do.



[/QUOTE]How did you do your networking? I was looking at doing some kind of network receiver to play my digital media from my Macbook Pro, but the networking receivers were getting pretty pricey and my understanding is that they don't work to well.[/QUOTE]

I remodeled my house a couple years ago and while the walls were open, I ran cat5e, coaxial and phone (also cat 5e) wire to almost every wall in every room of the house and brought it all back to a central location for termination (structured wiring concepts). The Squeezebox / Slimserver combo works really well for audio distribution. The receiver itself doesn't need to be connected to the network. Only the player (Squeezebox), and the computer running the Slimserver software need be on the network. The Squeezebox will work just fine over wireless. I initially hooked it up running on my wireless network, but when I tried it hardwired, it just seemed to sound better.

[/QUOTE]Regardless of getting a receiver w/ or w/o the new audio formats, are the Denon's worth it for the Audyssey Room correction as compared to a Yamaha or Pioneer? And since I'm not going to be setting up a 7.1 anytime soon (room/$$$ constraints), will any of these new formats really change a 5.1 system? Thanks[/QUOTE]

I can't speak about the Denon or Yamaha receivers as I've never owned either one. However, I do also have a Pioneer 84 receiver and had a 74 before that. While I thought Pioneer's MCACC room correction solution worked pretty good; once I got the Integra 9.8 and got the Audyssey room correction set up, there was a big difference. The Audyssey did a bang up job taking care of a couple of room correction issues that the Pioneer MCACC system just couldn't fix. I think the Audyssey system is overall better than the Pioneer's MCACC. I've heard the Yamaha YPAO correction system being set up on a friend's system. The test tones and general process was very similar to the Pioneer MCACC, and the results were similar.

 

[FSUguy]

[/QUOTE]I remodeled my house a couple years ago and while the walls were open, I ran cat5e, coaxial and phone (also cat 5e) wire to almost every wall in every room of the house and brought it all back to a central location for termination (structured wiring concepts). The Squeezebox / Slimserver combo works really well for audio distribution. The receiver itself doesn't need to be connected to the network. Only the player (Squeezebox), and the computer running the Slimserver software need be on the network. The Squeezebox will work just fine over wireless. I initially hooked it up running on my wireless network, but when I tried it hardwired, it just seemed to sound better.[/QUOTE]


So am I understanding that you don't have a network receiver, but rather the Squeezebox is taking care of everything? Because the networking receivers I'm looking at are pretty pricey, and if there was a work around that I could invest in later, that would be great. Could you describe mor ein detail how you have the system hooked up? And are you just running something like an optical cable to the receiver for playback?

Also, is you Audyssesy a separate unit, or is it built into your receiver? I have heard really good things about it being in a stand alone unit, but not to sure if the quality changes when it is put in a receiver

Thanks

 

[Cavediver]

So am I understanding that you don't have a network receiver, but rather the Squeezebox is taking care of everything? Because the networking receivers I'm looking at are pretty pricey, and if there was a work around that I could invest in later, that would be great. Could you describe mor ein detail how you have the system hooked up? And are you just running something like an optical cable to the receiver for playback?

Also, is you Audyssesy a separate unit, or is it built into your receiver? I have heard really good things about it being in a stand alone unit, but not to sure if the quality changes when it is put in a receiver

Thanks

I do not have a receiver. I have an Integra 9.8 pre/pro. It does have an ethernet port, but it is not hooked up to my network. The Squeezebox is a stand alone music player. All of the music files are on a 500 gb external usb hard drive attached to a computer on the network. The Slimserver software sits on the computer and serves/transports the music files to the Squeezebox over the network. The Squeezebox has an on screen display which is used to scroll through and choose which music to play. The Squeezebox is connected to the 9.8 via an optical cable thereby using the DAC in the 9.8 to convert the music to analog for transport to the amp and then on to the speakers. However the Squeezebox does have an internal DAC and analog outs which can be connected directly to an amp, but I wouldn't recommend doing that.

The Audyssey is an internal feature of the 9.8. The internal implementation is not as extensive as a stand alone Audyssey unit, but does a really good job of cleaning up the music.

 

[TLS Guy]

So I have been ridiculously torn on what receiver to buy to compliment my Klipsch Ref Series Speakers. First I started with the Yamaha V661, then thought I should look into getting a receiver that can support the new forms of DD TrueHD and DTS-HD. I looked at the Denon 2308CI, but found that it doesn't even support these formats and only has 2 HDMI inputs. Then there's the 2808, which supports the new formats, but only 2 HDMI's again. What about the 3808; supports the new formats, 4 HDMI's, and Network capable!!! But looking to be out of my price point.

My questions:
I have read that as long as you have a receiver that can receive multichannel PCM, which I think all the Denon's can do, then you can let your Next Gen player take care of decoding the new formats, as long as you use HDMI...any thoughts? Also, how good are these new formats and is it worth its salt to buy now to be capable later? If not, maybe i should just stick with the Yammy V661, although I have read amazing reviews of the Audyssey setup, the 1080p Upconversion, and audio fixing for mp3's, etc.
Edit: Would it be worth getting one of the higher end Denons to take advantage of pre outs for another amplifier later down the line?

Ahhhhh, so much to consider and as a noob, I could def use some help!!

Thanks

No, you need HDMI 1.3 inputs and a True Dolby HD decoder.