Don't Forget to Tip the Garbage Men for XMAS

[Adam]

I'm with you, Chris. It's just a different way of thinking, I suppose. I figure that my tip for doing my job well is that I get to keep my job. I'm already paid for what I do, after all. If the company appreciates it, they'll give me a raise. If they don't, and that annoys me, then I'm free to go get a different job. I understand that some service jobs have wages that are based on tips...but I don't like tipping because it's expected (although I do because I'm a lemming) - I think that bad service doesn't deserve it. I loved Japan - no tipping.

Perhaps I should have given the guys who installed my tile last week $100 each up front. Maybe they would have actually done their jobs, then. It didn't even occur to me. I paid a lot for the install...I should get a good one. Hmmm. Maybe I really should have greased their palms.

Free Pizza delivery isn't really free...

Heck, it hasn't been free (tip aside) for years out here. Ironically, the delivery person would get more money from me before they charged a delivery fee. They started charging because of gas prices - even though I only live two miles away. I wonder if it'll go back to being free now that gas is cheaper than it was before when they were free. Probably not...

 

[Tomorrow]

No, when I was an adivsor, I got was made substantial commissons and fees and I worked my a** off for my clients. My "tip" is by doing the best I can, they'll refer others to me, which they did frequently.

My issue is that it's just become expected... that somehow it's assumed. Free Pizza delivery isn't really free... my $30 haircut isn't really $30. It's odd that I shouldn't get a good... even great haircut for $30 unless I'm willing to pony up another $5-$8.

I'll own up to not having read this entire thread. But the issue of the OP is the garbage collector. I doubt he "expects" to be tipped. I'm certain that most people don't tip him. Mine does his job quite well, helps me out when I need it, and I like him. That's enough for me to give him a small gift, or gratuity, during the gift giving season.

You may be arguing against the accepted culture of tipping certain services, Chris. The fact that tipping does augment these type workers' wages is also culturally accepted. I can understand your unhappiness with that. But we can't change the culture overnight. Perhaps if you thought of it as "the best job you can" being different for different individuals. Some may actually warrant the tipping (amount to equal relative performance quality) with the service they provide by doing a better job than someone else. I'd like to think it's the amount of the tip that should be at issue...not the fact of.

 

[Tomorrow]

On this issue, I'm surprised that you are surprised. Union workers get bonuses and benefits by contract, not by tips. In fact, where I work there is a corporate policy preventing me from accepting work-related gifts.

Do you have a relative who is in a union? A friend? Even if you don't, let's pretend you have a sister married to a garbage man. Would you consider giving him a Christmas gift...or would you not because he makes more money than you do and has better benefits?

So what if they make millions? I have rich friends and I don't hesitate to send them a little gift every year. I see no difference just because of where or how they work ("work related"). You give not to an economic status, but to a human that has some positive effect on your life. Or just for the joy of giving. At least that's the way I look at it.

 

[Rickster71]

FWIW
I found a site about who to tip. Some of them I've never even thought of.
Tipping: How much and to whom:
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2006/10/12/basic-tips-on-tipping-how-much-and-to-whom/

 

[Adam]

Nice list, Rick. I noticed the one about hotel housekeepers. I tip them every day, every trip (I think that you need to put a note, as they aren't supposed to just pick up money that's in the room). I can't say for sure that it leads to better service, but I have an example. Years ago, I went on a business trip with two older guys for about a week. We all had our own rooms. They wouldn't dream of tipping the housekeepers...couldn't understand it. Every night at dinner, they'd complain about how they didn't get towels, or soap, or something. I always got fresh stuff and new supplies...always. I told them that, and mentioned that tipping would probably help them. They never tipped...and also never ran out of stuff to complain about. Coincidence? Maybe.

 

[Davemcc]

Do you have a relative who is in a union? A friend? Even if you don't, let's pretend you have a sister married to a garbage man. Would you consider giving him a Christmas gift...or would you not because he makes more money than you do and has better benefits?

Let's not get friends and family mixed up with random people that show up to perform services I pay for. I don't even know if I have the same garbageman week to week. I suspect that I get different ones all the time because there are days when I have to stop my car on the street, get out and remove the garbage pail from the middle of my driveway entrance, then get back in my car and drive into the driveway. Then again, sometimes I don't have to do that.

But still, I see no reason to tip unionized public servants. If that were the case, why not go down to city hall with a couple of bundles of $20's and start throwing them at all the employees there. Then maybe I can stop off at my Revenue Canada office and toss a bunch of $20's at all the tax collectors (who seem to do a better job "collecting" than my trash collector), maybe take a walk downtown and pass off some of those $20's to the parking meter attendants, stop some police cars and give them the rest of my Christmas cash and drop off some Christmas turkeys for all my local firemen. What's the difference except that the garbageman has a route that goes by my house once a week. They all get paid from my tax dollar ostensibly to support me. And not one of them is hurting for a paycheck, benefits or job security because the government just assesses and takes whatever the heck it wants from me every year.

I'll tell you what, though. I give my newspaper man a tip every year. He's a kindly, older fellow that makes it here every morning rain or shine, heat wave or ice storm and I usually have an opportunity to say good morning to him as he drops my paper off, always dry and in my mailbox. I also know that paper delivery guys are notoriously underpaid and that a tip to him will make a much more significant impact on his life than a well-paid garbageman on his way to a comfortable retirement in the suburbs.

 

[itschris]

I spent a good 20 minutes reading this thread all over and spent some more time thinking about it. This is obviously a hot spot for a lot of folks. I've come to a couple of determinations:

1) No one seems opposed to tipping for added value service
2) No one seems opposed to tipping for what they perceive is a value
3) The real gripe comes down to being shamed into tipping when 1 & 2 don't exist

I'm a generous tipper when I feel it's warranted, when I get someone doing something special beyond what they need to, or when I feel it's appreciated not assumed. When the delivery guy brings me a peice of furniture and carries it into my house. He's not going to get anything from me because I paid a shipping charge. But, if he helps me move the other couch out of the way and helps me put in the garage and has to spend an extra 20 minutes helping jam and jimmy it throught the door or have to carry it around to the front of the house to the double doors without complaining. He's getting a $20.

Also, for me, it's actually a dollar amount thing. I think giving a $1.50 on a $$5-6 breakfast is pretty sh*tty. I think anything less than $3 or making the bill "whole" to $10 is unfair if you've gotten good service at Denny's or a place like that. At the same time, I think it's absurd to give a $50-$60 tip at a place like Ruth's Chris or Mortons because I chose to ate a more expensive meal that required little if any additional work.

I don't mind giving. I just hate the idea when it's expected and the reasons they give for it. My wife tips her hair person $20 on a $100 service. One, I think $100 is crazy, but then to be expected to give the person $20 top of that? At the same time, your told it's to reward them and show your appreciation for a good haircut. What? Does that make any sense. I guess I just don't think a waiter at a fancy restaurant should make $40K a year since he's doing nothing more than the sweet gal we always get at Cody's who works twice as hard and makes half that.

Like so many other things, it comes down to "this is just the way it's always been" which irks me to no end. And all too often, this is coupled with that typical sense of entitlement that people just think they should get something "just because."

 

[Adam]

I'll tell you what, though. I give my newspaper man a tip every year. He's a kindly, older fellow that makes it here every morning rain or shine, heat wave or ice storm...

Good man, Dave. Good man. I delivered papers for about nine years - and I was old school in that I walked the route and put papers where people asked for them (mailbox, paper rack, inside garages, and so on). Bad weather makes it rough. If I got the paper from someone like that, I'd definitely tip them. I don't get a paper, but I don't think the people here that just drive down the street and throw papers onto driveways would notice an envelope. Someone would have to go out at 4am and stop their van (and probably meet them for the first time ever) to give them a tip. I'll give the van people credit, though, as they did miss my dog and I when they drove by and whipped a paper past us. I can't say that they intentionally threw around us, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. The big credit, though, is that the papers always seem to be there - and that's consistent service.

 

[Adam]

...the sweet gal we always get at Cody's who works twice as hard and makes half that.

Now, she sounds like a perfect candidate for a nice (and I'm sure totally unexpected) holiday tip!

 

[Clownfish]

No, when I was an adivsor, I got was made substantial commissons and fees and I worked my a** off for my clients. My "tip" is by doing the best I can, they'll refer others to me, which they did frequently.

My issue is that it's just become expected... that somehow it's assumed. Free Pizza delivery isn't really free... my $30 haircut isn't really $30. It's odd that I shouldn't get a good... even great haircut for $30 unless I'm willing to pony up another $5-$8.

Well, your "TIPs" were the new clients. It might have been nice if some of the old clients had also handed you a "thanks for helping me make more $$$" and given you a good bottle of VSOP.

I think the "TIPS" for waitstaff became more expected, when they started to get taxed on that income.

Here's how it works:

Staff make about 2.50 an hour.
They have to come in, set up, get the tables, booths, salad bar, silverware all ready. Not to mention closing, cleaning and putting stuff away.

Work their shift...

THEN:
They are expected to pay income tax to the tune of 12% based on their gross total sales! The computer/electronic cash registers keep track, and report the total that server sold, for that given day/shift/week/month/year.

SO:

If your fancy meal costs $100.00, your server is being taxed, based on that 12.0 percent. They are paying taxes on the premise that they are getting tipped. Plus, they are expected to share with the bus staff, and bar staff...

If you leave them $10 bucks, or even less, do you see how they are actually "in the hole"?

Perhaps it shouldn't be expected but they shouldn't be taxed on expectedincome, either, IMO.

 

[Tomorrow]

Let's not get friends and family mixed up with random people that show up to perform services I pay for. I don't even know if I have the same garbageman week to week. I suspect that I get different ones all the time because there are days when I have to stop my car on the street, get out and remove the garbage pail from the middle of my driveway entrance, then get back in my car and drive into the driveway. Then again, sometimes I don't have to do that.

But still, I see no reason to tip unionized public servants. If that were the case, why not go down to city hall with a couple of bundles of $20's and start throwing them at all the employees there. Then maybe I can stop off at my Revenue Canada office and toss a bunch of $20's at all the tax collectors (who seem to do a better job "collecting" than my trash collector), maybe take a walk downtown and pass off some of those $20's to the parking meter attendants, stop some police cars and give them the rest of my Christmas cash and drop off some Christmas turkeys for all my local firemen. What's the difference except that the garbageman has a route that goes by my house once a week. They all get paid from my tax dollar ostensibly to support me. And not one of them is hurting for a paycheck, benefits or job security because the government just assesses and takes whatever the heck it wants from me every year.

I'll tell you what, though. I give my newspaper man a tip every year. He's a kindly, older fellow that makes it here every morning rain or shine, heat wave or ice storm and I usually have an opportunity to say good morning to him as he drops my paper off, always dry and in my mailbox. I also know that paper delivery guys are notoriously underpaid and that a tip to him will make a much more significant impact on his life than a well-paid garbageman on his way to a comfortable retirement in the suburbs.

Dave,

I view this issue of tipping as a gratuity...which is its origin. It's simply a "thank you" for a job well done and a means for showing appreciation. While I agree with Chris that I don't think a gratuity should be "expected", I don't agree with you that a certain class should be exempt from my gratitude simply because of what they do for a living.

 

[Adam]

...I don't agree with you that a certain class should be exempt from my gratitude simply because of what they do for a living.

I don't think that Dave's point was regarding what someone does for a living, but rather how much they make and how they are funded. However, I agree with you - you can give tips to anyone that you want to, my man!

"Gratitude" doesn't equal "cash", though. Not a direct comment to you, RJ - just an observation. It makes me very happy if someone goes out of their way to mention that they appreciated something that I did...much happier than someone just handing me money. Granted, both would be better.

EDIT: Okay...it would depend on how much money they handed me.

 

[Tomorrow]

I don't think that Dave's point was regarding what someone does for a living, but rather how much they make and how they are funded. However, I agree with you - you can give tips to anyone that you want to, my man!

"Gratitude" doesn't equal "cash", though. Not a direct comment to you, RJ - just an observation. It makes me very happy if someone goes out of their way to mention that they appreciated something that I did...much happier than someone just handing me money. Granted, both would be better.

EDIT: Okay...it would depend on how much money they handed me.

I absolutely agree with you, Adam. I think not enough people in this world show appreciation. Because we were talking money-tips, that's what I responded to. People love to hear that something they do is appreciated, money is not necessary. But I cannot abide the attitude, some of it expressed in this thread, that "I work hard and do my job...THEY should do the same. Period." It's as though there exists a certain level of expectation of what a job performance should be. If someone doesn't measure up, there's complaining. If someone does measure up to expectations, then they're doing their job as they should. Never in those posts do you see the expression of appreciation. Expectation...not appreciation. The issue of gratitude or its expression is lacking in those kinds of posts and in too many folks, IMHO.

Dave's post shouts of class hatred or envy, to be honest with you. That's what surprised me about it. What is wrong with thanking or showing gratitude (including tipping) to someone who makes a lot more money than I do for something they've done which has a positive effect upon me?

As an aside, and not related to the above...I have friends who work in the restaurant business...many of them over the years, in fact. To a person they will all tell you that "generally" (this is, of course, a generalization) that weathier individuals are worse tippers. Why do you suppose that is?

 

[Adam]

An interesting discussion, IMO.

I think that there should be expectations of job performance - and those should set the standards. People receive compensation for work done. They have an expectation to get paid (and how much), and I have an expectation to get what I paid for. IMO, too many people have a different attitude in that they should get paid to do nothing. That has driven down the expectations of others in what they'll get for their money, and hence people are thrilled when someone does their job.

We all have expectations. Some of us have lower expectations, some have higher. We all have them, though. If someone exceeds our expectations, then we are happy - if they fail to meet them, then we aren't happy. No surprises there.

 

[Tomorrow]

An interesting discussion, IMO.

I think that there should be expectations of job performance - and those should set the standards. People receive compensation for work done. They have an expectation to get paid (and how much), and I have an expectation to get what I paid for. IMO, too many people have a different attitude in that they should get paid to do nothing. That has driven down the expectations of others in what they'll get for their money, and hence people are thrilled when someone does their job.

We all have expectations. Some of us have lower expectations, some have higher. We all have them, though. If someone exceeds our expectations, then we are happy - if they fail to meet them, then we aren't happy. No surprises there.

It is an interesting and enlightening thread and discussion.

Ultimately though, I don't think it matters what our expectations are so long as the condition of "appreciation" is met within us (individually). Spoiled, rich, poor...expectations differ with one's situation. But it seems to me that appreciation is a positive thing that drives more positive things within people.

I'll speculate to you that it is the general condition of the economy and even the currently depressive nature of the entire world that has driven much of what I'm perceiving here as "Scroogeness". Perhaps my terms of class hatred or class envy were too harsh, especially with Dave. I have found that I agree with him politically and on every other issue we've ever discussed on this forum...more aligned than with anyone else, except of course for my best buddy, AJ.

But I'm still curious as to where the love went. Where went the Christmas Spirit? You know...the true gift of humanity to itself. Ah, screw the garbage men and other overpaid public employees. They make a lot more money than I do for doing monkee work...Merry Christmas. Not!

 

[Davemcc]

Perhaps my terms of class hatred or class envy were too harsh, especially with Dave.

You crack me up. I am the union worker in my family. Maybe that just gives me some insight into the nature of union work, expectations and mind set.

I don't see why you have so much trouble with my position. It's not really based on income, class, type of work or that type of thing. What I've been trying to say, perhaps ineffectively, is that union workers are treated fairly. They are treated fairly, even generously, in all aspects of their employment. On top of that, public service employees are not under the usual pressure of workers in the open market. They are not subject to layoffs (like I am enduring right now) or threats to their future well-being, lifestyle or retirement. Simply put, they have every reason to be content.

It's not that I don't appreciate the service. I appreciate it as much as I do the postal carrier, the meter reader and the snow plow driver that cleared my street last night at 2 AM. There's no question in my mind that I have already contributed very, very generously to their content and comfortable well being and long term happiness throughout their retirement. I feel no need increase that contribution just because it's Christmas (which I don't celebrate anyway, not being Christian and all that).

 

[Tomorrow]

You crack me up. I am the union worker in my family.

AHA! That's how you're able to afford that brand spankin' new Z6.

I agree with all you just said, Dave. I just don't think it has anything to do with whether or not a garbage collector deserves a gratuity.

Lemme see...I'll wish you a very Happy New Year! (You do believe in new years, doncha?)

 

[Tomorrow]

By the way, most public employees are prevented by law from accepting gratuities. (Check out the Illinois' governor. ) Some can accept minimal donations e.g. up to 20 bucks for USPS workers. My wife works for the local PD and she'll get locked up if she even thinks about accepting a "tip". (When do you call a 'tip' a 'bribe'? )

 

[Davemcc]

AHA! That's how you're able to afford that brand spankin' new Z6.

I agree with all you just said, Dave. I just don't think it has anything to do with whether or not a garbage collector deserves a gratuity.

Lemme see...I'll wish you a very Happy New Year! (You do believe in new years, doncha?)

I just got the base Vette. I'm not management. I can't afford a Z06.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you RJ, and all my other Audioholic friends whether or not you tip your garbageman.

 

[aberkowitz]

By the way, most public employees are prevented by law from accepting gratuities. (Check out the Illinois' governor. ) Some can accept minimal donations e.g. up to 20 bucks for USPS workers. My wife works for the local PD and she'll get locked up if she even thinks about accepting a "tip". (When do you call a 'tip' a 'bribe'? )

And I believe USPS workers can only accept non-cash gifts.... we go with a Starbucks gift card.

In NYC tipping for doormen and building supers is pretty much a requirement... and with the amount of service they give they definitely deserve it. We end up spending $650 on the 18 doormen/concierges/porters/handymen who service our building. They all know my name and my wife's name, and they are worth every dollar we spend.