Dolby Surround & DTS Neural:X "Upmixers" on New Denon X2800 in a 5.1 System

[John Lohmann]

Not sure I've ever had an HD DVD (had to look it up too, been a while). I pretty much went from dvd to bluray. I probably only have a handful of 2.0 dvds (I know I have one bluray that way).

I too went from DVD to Blu, but my point was that the HD DVD format had the majority of Dolby Digital Plus soundtracks (as far as discs go); when Blu-ray arrived, the major codecs were Dolby TrueHD and, to a larger extent, DTS-HD Master Audio.

Not sure of your point with the Fleetwood Mac disc, tho.

A couple of weeks ago, I played a Fleetwood Mac concert DVD that has a 2.0 Dolby sound mix, and the Denon automatically went into Dolby Surround mode to decode it. I experimented with switching this to DTS Neural:X while the disc was playing to see if there would be more crowd immersion from the surround channels, and there really wasn't. This was in response to you suggesting I try another upmixer.

But when I did this, it sent the AVR into that "upmixer mixup" I talked about a couple of posts up; no matter on that, I was just saying.

The bottom line is that I did try DTS Neural for a 2-channel signal.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the expansion.

Didn't even know DD+ had been used on discs. So was that a limitation of HD DVD, they still couldn't handle a lossless codec?

I think it may depend on material and original recording as to what may stand out with using different upmixers. I just don't analyze the upmixers nearly as much as you do otoh I'd worry more about proper speaker setup myself.

 

[John Lohmann]

Thanks for the expansion.

Didn't even know DD+ had been used on discs. So was that a limitation of HD DVD, they still couldn't handle a lossless codec?

No problem.

Well, no, HD DVD also had lossless mixes on them; the format simply lost the "format war" so to speak.

I think it may depend on material and original recording as to what may stand out with using different upmixers. I just don't analyze the upmixers nearly as much as you do otoh I'd worry more about proper speaker setup myself.

It's just disappointing that, using the Friday the 13th DVDs as the example, 2.0 Dolby Stereo mixes played back with some aggressive surround information via Pro Logic II and now I'm not hearing it with Dolby Surround. I'm not the first person to complain about this upmixing system and how it's just not nearly as "effective" as Pro Logic was if you Google it.

As for speaker setup, we're fine with the way the system is -- sure, the surrounds should TECHNICALLY be at ear level, but everything sounds fine where they are above us. It even gives a quasi-Atmos effect because they're up there.

 

[isolar8001]

No problem.

Well, no, HD DVD also had lossless mixes on them; the format simply lost the "format war" so to speak.


It's just disappointing that, using the Friday the 13th DVDs as the example, 2.0 Dolby Stereo mixes played back with some aggressive surround information via Pro Logic II and now I'm not hearing it with Dolby Surround. I'm not the first person to complain about this upmixing system and how it's just not nearly as "effective" as Pro Logic was if you Google it.

As for speaker setup, we're fine with the way the system is -- sure, the surrounds should TECHNICALLY be at ear level, but everything sounds fine where they are above us. It even gives a quasi-Atmos effect because they're up there.

For your use case and expected/wanted results you need to look into Yamaha.

They still have a plethora of DSP modes on their AVR's that will give you what you want.
(they still make separate DSP processors even)

In the age of Atmos, other makers have cut DSP functions to the bone.

 

[Trebdp83]

No problem.

Well, no, HD DVD also had lossless mixes on them; the format simply lost the "format war" so to speak.


It's just disappointing that, using the Friday the 13th DVDs as the example, 2.0 Dolby Stereo mixes played back with some aggressive surround information via Pro Logic II and now I'm not hearing it with Dolby Surround. I'm not the first person to complain about this upmixing system and how it's just not nearly as "effective" as Pro Logic was if you Google it.

As for speaker setup, we're fine with the way the system is -- sure, the surrounds should TECHNICALLY be at ear level, but everything sounds fine where they are above us. It even gives a quasi-Atmos effect because they're up there.

If you care to throw a bit of money at an experiment, Onkyo does have a refurbished TX-NR686 available on their site. It does NOT have the expanded web setup to worry about and any setting you'd need to make is available in the onscreen Setup. It does NOT display source input and input signal together on the front display. It does NOT have the sound mode preset. However, it is one of the last models to feature IntelliVolume. Center Spread can be accessed from the Quick Menu. It would be buried in the Setup menu on later models and only be accessible there. It does not have the cross up mixing restrictions of some later models but I'm not sure how well the sound modes automatically adjust for input signals. It does NOT support Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization or DTS Virtual:X so there is no Speaker Virtualizer setting with which to be concerned.

 

[John Lohmann]

If you care to throw a bit of money at an experiment, Onkyo does have a refurbished TX-NR686 available on their site. It does NOT have the expanded web setup to worry about and any setting you'd need to make is available in the onscreen Setup. It does NOT display source input and input signal together on the front display. It does NOT have the sound mode preset. However, it is one of the last models to feature IntelliVolume. Center Spread can be accessed from the Quick Menu. It would be buried in the Setup menu on later models and only be accessible there. It does not have the cross up mixing restrictions of some later models but I'm not sure how well the sound modes automatically adjust for input signals. It does NOT support Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization or DTS Virtual:X so there is no Speaker Virtualizer setting with which to be concerned.

Thanks very much for the heads up, Treb; appreciate it.

You're referring to this one, right?

TX-NR686 (Refurbished) | Onkyo

 

[Trebdp83]

Yes, that is it.

 

[John Lohmann]

Thanks.

 

[John Lohmann]

Hey Again Treb and Lovin (or anyone else who may have any thoughts),

We were watching some films from a Scream 3-Movie Blu-ray Collection we own (for the Halloween season), and the Denon behaved weirdly with regard to one aspect of those discs when they played; I wanted to get your opinions/thoughts about what may have been going on here (in direct relation to the subject of this thread with the ways the upmixers are working).

I know we discussed, at length, how the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixers are likely working with my 5.1 setup, and how they shouldn't be affecting 5.1 surround content played back on my system (when they're indicated as being "active" on the AVR's display). Now, because these discs were authored with 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio tracks, the Denon ended up showing "DTSHD + Neural:X" when the actual films played (as they normally do).

Yet before the films in this set played, there was a DTS-HD Master Audio "demo" screen that ran for a moment, showing the DTS-HD MA logo (on the TV screen itself) accompanied by a brief audio demo. When this demo played, the X2800 showed "DTS-HD" on the display -- NOT "DTSHD + Neural:X" as it usually does. This is leading me to believe that maybe SOMETHING is changing when the "+Upmixer" designation is shown next to the standard codec -- in other words, the upmixers MAY be affecting 5.1 tracks when they're indicated on the front panel, because when the Master Audio demo ran, the display switched to "DTS-HD," which it would read if NO upmixer was applied.

Do you see what I'm asking, and if so, what are your thoughts on it?

 

[lovinthehd]

Hey Again Treb and Lovin (or anyone else who may have any thoughts),

We were watching some films from a Scream 3-Movie Blu-ray Collection we own (for the Halloween season), and the Denon behaved weirdly with regard to one aspect of those discs when they played; I wanted to get your opinions/thoughts about what may have been going on here (in direct relation to the subject of this thread with the ways the upmixers are working).

I know we discussed, at length, how the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixers are likely working with my 5.1 setup, and how they shouldn't be affecting 5.1 surround content played back on my system (when they're indicated as being "active" on the AVR's display). Now, because these discs were authored with 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio tracks, the Denon ended up showing "DTSHD + Neural:X" when the actual films played (as they normally do).

Yet before the films in this set played, there was a DTS-HD Master Audio "demo" screen that ran for a moment, showing the DTS-HD MA logo (on the TV screen itself) accompanied by a brief audio demo. When this demo played, the X2800 showed "DTS-HD" on the display -- NOT "DTSHD + Neural:X" as it usually does. This is leading me to believe that maybe SOMETHING is changing when the "+Upmixer" designation is shown next to the standard codec -- in other words, the upmixers MAY be affecting 5.1 tracks when they're indicated on the front panel, because when the Master Audio demo ran, the display switched to "DTS-HD," which it would read if NO upmixer was applied.

Do you see what I'm asking, and if so, what are your thoughts on it?

IIRC there is a slight difference between DTS-HD and DTS-HDMA but I may be thinking about the lossy core. Maybe demo was in 7.1 instead of 5.1 and avr detected it as a different codec not associated with your chosen upmixer?

 

[isolar8001]

IIRC there is a slight difference between DTS-HD and DTS-HDMA but I may be thinking about the lossy core. Maybe demo was in 7.1 instead of 5.1 and avr detected it as a different codec not associated with your chosen upmixer?

DTS-HDMA is the container/codec format for any DTS-HD 7.1....you are correct. It's also the container/codec for DTS:X.
Chances are that demo was in 7.1, and the movie itself was 5.1 (I cant imagine those old Scream movies being 7.1, but I could be wrong).
When Denon shows those dual formats, the first is the main audio track, and the second pertains to the lossy core track (DTS or Dolby Digital) and what upmixer setting has been assigned to it.
The demo was probably 7.1 only.
(when I had a Denon, this drove me crazy too)

 

[Trebdp83]

The “Scream” 1-4 blu-rays are in DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 48kHz. The DTS HD Master Audio intro is also in DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 BUT at 96kHz. DTS Neural:X does NOT work with DTS HD Master Audio above 48kHz. So, the intro is played with a straight DTS HD Master Audio decode and then the movie plays with DTS Neural:X by default.

This behavior is not exclusive to the Denon. My Onkyo does as much with the “Scream” discs. But, while DTS Neural:X is locked out during the intro, DTS Virtual:X works when the Speaker Virtualizer is ON using a 5.1 speaker configuration. Again, simply press the MOVIE button repeatedly to select a straight decode of a given signal when the “+ DSurr” or “+ Neural:X” displays get obnoxious when playing multichannel tracks. Oh, and read the f#%kin’ manual from beginning to end already.

 

[John Lohmann]

IIRC there is a slight difference between DTS-HD and DTS-HDMA but I may be thinking about the lossy core. Maybe demo was in 7.1 instead of 5.1 and avr detected it as a different codec not associated with your chosen upmixer?

"DTS-HD" is just the way the newer AVRs show "DTS Master Audio" now -- it's the same codec, but they dropped the "MA" (some AVR brands may still show the "MSTR," such as Onkyo, but I was told by someone on another forum that this was DTS' decision to change the codec marker).

So either way, we're talking about "DTS HD Master Audio," but I was wondering why the upmixer WASN'T being added to that Master Audio "intro demo" before the film started.

 

[John Lohmann]

The “Scream” 1-4 blu-rays are in DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 48kHz. The DTS HD Master Audio intro is also in DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 BUT at 96kHz. DTS Neural:X does NOT work with DTS HD Master Audio above 48kHz. So, the intro is played with a straight DTS HD Master Audio decode and then the movie plays with DTS Neural:X by default.

This behavior is not exclusive to the Denon. My Onkyo does as much with the “Scream” discs. But, while DTS Neural:X is locked out during the intro, DTS Virtual:X works when the Speaker Virtualizer is ON using a 5.1 speaker configuration. Again, simply press the MOVIE button repeatedly to select a straight decode of a given signal when the “+ DSurr” or “+ Neural:X” displays get obnoxious when playing multichannel tracks. Oh, and read the f#%kin’ manual from beginning to end already.

This explains it -- I appreciate the response. For clarification, I didn't really care what it was doing in this instance (switching to straight "DTS-HD" for that demo clip), but rather WHY it was happening -- so I didn't need to press any buttons out of frustration over the upmixers getting "obnoxious."

I understand what you're saying about reading the manual, but there's probably little chance I would have made the connection between the different sampling frequencies and how the upmixer designations were working -- trust me when I say it was MUCH easier for me to post this query here and then let a knowledgeable member, like you, explain it clearly in response.

You have the Screams on Blu?

 

[Trebdp83]

Yup

 

[John Lohmann]

Nice!

You have em individually or in some kind of collection pack? I have the 3-Movie Blu-ray Collection for the first three, and then four, five and six individually, with part five on 4K UHD Blu-ray.

 

[Trebdp83]

I have 1-4 individually on blu-ray and 5 and 6 individually on 4K blu-ray.

 

[John Lohmann]

I have 1-4 individually on blu-ray and 5 and 6 individually on 4K blu-ray.

Very similar to me, then -- except I have six on regular Blu-ray (it was a blind buy for us, and we weren't sure we'd like it enough to spend the extra for the 4K).

 

[lovinthehd]

"DTS-HD" is just the way the newer AVRs show "DTS Master Audio" now -- it's the same codec, but they dropped the "MA" (some AVR brands may still show the "MSTR," such as Onkyo, but I was told by someone on another forum that this was DTS' decision to change the codec marker).

So either way, we're talking about "DTS HD Master Audio," but I was wondering why the upmixer WASN'T being added to that Master Audio "intro demo" before the film started.

I was more thinking back a few years, something like this https://avgadgets.com/dts-hd-master-audio/

 

[John Lohmann]

I was more thinking back a few years, something like this https://avgadgets.com/dts-hd-master-audio/

Yes -- there was a time when DTS-HD referred to a totally different codec. I remember that. Today, according to this source I mentioned, Master Audio is lumped together with "DTS-HD" and shown as such on the AVR displays. It's confusing, to be sure, but he told me that it was a decision DTS made and ultimately implemented it in firmware updates for receiver brands. So, now, when you view a film that contains a DTS Master Audio soundtrack, the front of the AVR just reads "DTS-HD."

I hate it, too.

However, I did notice, when I looked at pics of Treb's Onkyo front display he provided, that apparently some brands are still using "MSTR" at the end of the reference -- perhaps the pics Treb took were before the Onkyo did a firmware update...I don't know. But I was assured that there was some kind of changelog made to DTS' decoding algorithm wherein Master Audio soundtracks only show as "DTS-HD."

I can share his PM to me about this, from another forum, if you'd like.