Do some amps have a warmer sound than others?

[wire]

I played around with my sytem quite a bit.. granted not all of it was sophisticated or double blind, just open minded observations.

I hooked up 2 channel with my Elite 94, vs my standard setup using my Sunfire Amp, and also had dug out my old Adcom 555II 200x2.

There wasn't a great deal of difference that I could detect or that would make me say once was very much better or even different, but I will say that I noticed "some" difference... most of which is very hard to quantify. I'd say the Adcom was a bit brighter, more in your face sounding. I noticed it on tracks that had a lot of treble sound like cymbals. I would say that the Sunfire was more laid back, less fatiguing. I think it just sounds a bit more fluid or liquid-y. The amps from the Elite sounded very much like the Adcom, but seemed to give up just a little bit of detail at very high volumes... again I noticed it in the trebel when cymbals played. You didn't hear as distinct a sound... more like continuous whoosh of sound as opposed to a distinct crisp crack of continued sound. This was extremely subtle and only on certain parts of music when I was really paying attention when I thought I may have heard a difference. Taking into consideration the time it took to right away swap to the wires to something else and re-listen, it's hard for me to say for sure.

These are all very subjective comments and I chose words that make sense in my head to describe what felt I was hearing. I really can't say that I would be unhappy or happier with either configuration. It all sounded very good to me and I was very pleased no matter what I hooked up, so take it for it's worth.

Again, this is just an opinon, but I think people sometimes mistake a "good sounding" amp for what it is because compared to more budget based power, amps or amp sections in higher end equipment may not have the muddied signal pat that budget based stuff may have. My thought is that the higher end you go, it becomes very difficult to hear differences because they're all so clean and unadulterated in what they do. I read professional reviewers discussing nuances between $10k amps. They're a lot better than me. In my limited experience of having higher end stuff to sit and listen to, I'm just not able to tell the difference or detect nuance like that.

So there you have my 2 cents based on my own equipment. After 3 paragraphs, I don't think I ended up saying much or coming to any conclusion or even answered you question, but I hope it helps in some way.

The Sunfire is much different amp then the other 2 .
Bob Carver put a little chip in all his amps , to make them sound more layed back like Tube Amps . The symbols is something i notice alot between my tube amp and my 4b , i even notice in the voice .
I compared the Carver Amp to my Tube amp , the Tube was easier to listin to , the symbols and the voice is next to none .

 

[wire]

I kind of feel the same way about my Denon vs Acurus: I felt like the Denon was less fatiguing. The volume I listen to (~ 85dB A) is about the same with both amps. But for some reasons (placebo or not) I just feel like the Denon is less fatiguing. With the Acurus I felt a little exhausted after 2 hrs, but with the Denon I could listen for 4 hrs and not be exhausted.

Like you said, it's very SUBJECTIVE, and I wouldn't go against the editors of The Audio Critic or Audioholics. But the important thing is to like what we HEAR and stick with what we PREFER, even if it's all subjective.

AcuDef
You still have to take in the fact that Bob Carver designed the Sunfires to sound like the Silver Seven Tube amp .

 

[yettitheman]

Well.. I'm not so sure about sound, I'm sure it's possible for an amplifier to have a different sound than other amplifiers (for instance, tube amplifiers, my experience being with guitar amps while using the same speaker), but at the expense of possibly "adding extra sound" to the signal path.

It's very possible in certain conditions.

I'd say that with good amplifiers, the difference between sound is near nil.
However, some amps run warmer than others. Onkyo 805 VS McIntosh tube amp? I think the tube amp will heat a basement.

 

[itschris]

I was thinking about this last night and called one of my old buddies who was very much into 2 channel and ht. He has dedicated rooms for both, and has the kind of equipment that make us all jealous. I've gotten most of my taste for the fine stuff visiting his house over the last 10+ years. We haven't hung out for some time, but I figured it was time to call and catch up.

I posed this question and here was his take and I thought it made a lot of sense. He said,

Nick: Your ride that GSX-1000R.... correct? Have you ever topped it out?

Me: Yeah... about 158

Nick: Supposed someone let's your borrow their R1 with a bit of work on it and you could 159 or 160... without looking at the speedo or knowing your trap speed... would you know which was faster?

Me: I seriously doubt it.

Nick: Exactly. That's the world of high end gear. If you put a room full of $5k plus amps together, or even more to the point $10K plus gear... you just won't hear a lot of difference. You may hear nuance, but it would be less clear cut than the motorcycle race because the difference between 158 and 160 yields a winner.... the amp contest would not.

This is pretty much what I thought, but I thought he put together a nice analogy.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

AcuDef
You still have to take in the fact that Bob Carver designed the Sunfires to sound like the Silver Seven Tube amp .

So are we saying that Sunfire amps will have the frequency roll-off?

Sunfire TGA-5400 Amp Frequency response:
+0.16dB at 10 Hz; +0.20 dB at 20 Hz
–0.39 dB at 20 kHz; –2.72 dB at 50 kHz.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/poweramplifiers/1106sunfiretgptga/index1.html

It looks to me that the FR is pretty flat (20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.39dB). I don't see the 'roll-off" on the FR.

 

[jinjuku]

Here are the amps I have easy access to:

Pioneer 1018TX receiver
Behringer A500
Behringer EP2500 (w/ 12 volt fan)
Crown DC 300 A (about 30 years old)
A whole stack of NAD (my buddy is a dealer)

At a reasonable listening level I couldn't tell you which is which. Now when hopping on it the Pioneer will cry uncle first and the sound is noticeable (DUH!).

Now here is where I have a problem: I would say in any ordinary circumstance that the A500 or the DC 300 A will sound 99.9% like a McIntosh. But there lies the difference:

ANY MANUFACTURER can play around with their design and produce an amp that sounds 'different'. It doesn't make it better, it simply makes it different. Then you let the marketing people at it and you end up with people and their money being parted. I know McIntosh is well built stuff. But I have more sense than money.

Your amp, your pre-amp, your interconnects should all get the hell out of the way of your SOURCE. When the source material gets mastered in the studio it was intended to sound a certain way. Everything between your source and your speakers should simply reproduce with no coloration.

If the mixing studio wants to warm up the vocals they will. If they want to tone down a brass section they will. If they want a little distortion on a string section they will. All in the studio. All on your source.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Your amp, your pre-amp, your interconnects should all get the hell out of the way of your SOURCE.

I hear you, brother!

I agree 100%!

The bottom line is, the final Sound needs to sound great and pleasing to you.

Then we can enjoy the movies and music.

 

[Ron Temple]

Like itschris, I have/had several 2 channel amps and did an inhouse comparison to decide which I preferred and which I would keep. A Carver TFM35, and Adcom 555 and a Luxman M-117. The Carver by far is the most laid back and "liquid" is a very apt adjective for what it does to the midrange, vocals with a hint of softness to percussive strikes and cymbals. The Adcom was neutral, accurate and in your face. I really liked the difference, but ultimately I couldn't make it play nice with the Carver. It was ok on the fronts with the Carver on the surrounds, but not vice versa. It stood out in surround duties and took you out of the moment. The Luxman has elements of both amps. By far the best bass punch, a very smooth midrange with laid back highs. It's similar to the Carver sound, but different. I use it for my fronts and put the Carver on the surrounds, for now. It is interchangeable and I can mix it up anytime without a loss of synergy. As stated, Bob Carver emulated/modded many of his Carver and Sunfire amps and markets a "tubelike" sound. You either love it or hate it. Luxman did similar modification though the Carver is a transfer function Class H and Luxman a class A/B. Some might find the differences subtle, but I found them fairly stark and easy to assign preference. I also have no interest in DBX testing or creating any sort of scientific evaluation. I just plug it in, set the gain to max on the amp, calibrate, listen and let my speakers tell me what I'm hearing. I'm sure there are many amps that are more similar than different, but these particular amps, IME, have easily apparent sound signatures.

 

[jinjuku]

Like itschris, I have/had several 2 channel amps and did an inhouse comparison to decide which I preferred and which I would keep. A Carver TFM35, and Adcom 555 and a Luxman M-117. The Carver by far is the most laid back and "liquid" is a very apt adjective for what it does to the midrange, vocals with a hint of softness to percussive strikes and cymbals. The Adcom was neutral, accurate and in your face. I really liked the difference, but ultimately I couldn't make it play nice with the Carver. It was ok on the fronts with the Carver on the surrounds, but not vice versa. It stood out in surround duties and took you out of the moment. The Luxman has elements of both amps. By far the best bass punch, a very smooth midrange with laid back highs. It's similar to the Carver sound, but different. I use it for my fronts and put the Carver on the surrounds, for now. It is interchangeable and I can mix it up anytime without a loss of synergy. As stated, Bob Carver emulated/modded many of his Carver and Sunfire amps and markets a "tubelike" sound. You either love it or hate it. Luxman did similar modification though the Carver is a transfer function Class H and Luxman a class A/B. Some might find the differences subtle, but I found them fairly stark and easy to assign preference. I also have no interest in DBX testing or creating any sort of scientific evaluation. I just plug it in, set the gain to max on the amp, calibrate, listen and let my speakers tell me what I'm hearing. I'm sure there are many amps that are more similar than different, but these particular amps, IME, have easily apparent sound signatures.

You made my point. These AMPS have been designed to sound a particular way. The designer took a straight up linear design mantra (which is STAY TRUE TO THE SOURCE ) and messed with it.

Now it doesn't matter what your source material is. It will be colored by the amp in the same exact way every time. Give me a straight up clean design with a monster transformer for sustainable power, head room, and slew rate.

I never understood the "Lets not stay true to the source" when it comes to your signal path. Why spend gobs on esoteric amps and not the speakers?

 

[itschris]

You made my point. These AMPS have been designed to sound a particular way. The designer took a straight up linear design mantra (which is STAY TRUE TO THE SOURCE ) and messed with it.

Now it doesn't matter what your source material is. It will be colored by the amp in the same exact way every time. Give me a straight up clean design with a monster transformer for sustainable power, head room, and slew rate.

I never understood the "Lets not stay true to the source" when it comes to your signal path. Why spend gobs on esoteric amps and not the speakers?

At 2 or 3 grand... I can't remember what I paid for it, I wouldn't call my Sunfire esoteric. How do you determine what is colored vs not? I mean, what is the baseline reference? How is it determined to be 100% uncolored. The Sunfire may be "laid back" but maybe only compared to ther amps... who's to say which one is most accurate.

That's the problem we run into when we talk about this stuff. We get into this "this is better" or "that one is best" and I just don't know how any of us can even prove that. On top of it, that assuming we all hear things identical and process what we hear exactly the same.

 

[jinjuku]

At 2 or 3 grand... I can't remember what I paid for it, I wouldn't call my Sunfire esoteric. How do you determine what is colored vs not? I mean, what is the baseline reference? How is it determined to be 100% uncolored. The Sunfire may be "laid back" but maybe only compared to ther amps... who's to say which one is most accurate.

That's the problem we run into when we talk about this stuff. We get into this "this is better" or "that one is best" and I just don't know how any of us can even prove that. On top of it, that assuming we all hear things identical and process what we hear exactly the same.

It's a given that any thing you measure you have changed just by measurement. I just know that I spend my $$ on stuff that is reasonable (I know another subjective term) for the performance gained. But engineers do understand how to keep it clean and linear as possible from transformer to transistor. I think some designers play with that and come up with a 'sound' that they can then 'market' because it is simply 'different'.

I think most solidly built commercial/pro-sumer amps will sound 99% alike. Take NAD or Outlaw or Emotiva. Spend $1k. You will get great gear for the money spent and, with out the engineering dept doing something wacky, sound alike in blind listening with all other variables being base lined across the board.

The Sunfire looks great by the way. I personally would have to have a 2-3 fold increase in what I was hearing. Will the Sunfire sound different than NAD/Outlaw/Emotiva. Sure it will if they did something deliberate in the design.

 

[Ron Temple]

The OP was asking if some amps offer a warmer character than others. So the answer is yes. In talking to DannG at Emo, he tells me the RPA 1 has a warmer more detailed sound than the XPA 2 though for shere guts there's no comparison. They were going to drop the line, but enough 2 channel fans have convinced them to bring it back (at least as a month ago). There's no wrong answer, it's just a preference. Matching your front end to your speakers to attain the sound you want can take some experimentation and some choices aren't always a good fit. It's nice to know that there are options.

 

[jinjuku]

I understand what the OP was asking. My goal here is for others and potential new folks to understand that there are many solid quality amps that don't cost in the range of Krell/SunFire/McIntosh etc... that will be within a splitting of the hair difference in sound and a world of difference in price.

Again if you want to buy an amp where the designer went out of there way to make it sound different and then market that difference. More power to you.

I will stick with a straight up design with plenty of power and headroom. To each their own. Trust me I am looking at an emotiva for my L/C/R Zaph ZDT3.5's. A great amp for the $$.

 

[mtrycrafts]

AcuDef
You still have to take in the fact that Bob Carver designed the Sunfires to sound like the Silver Seven Tube amp .

Didn't he accomplish this by a nice fat 1 Ohm resistor in the output path and bingo, the amp frequency response followed the speaker's

 

[mtrycrafts]

So are we saying that Sunfire amps will have the frequency roll-off?

Sunfire TGA-5400 Amp Frequency response:
+0.16dB at 10 Hz; +0.20 dB at 20 Hz
–0.39 dB at 20 kHz; –2.72 dB at 50 kHz.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/poweramplifiers/1106sunfiretgptga/index1.html

It looks to me that the FR is pretty flat (20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.39dB). I don't see the 'roll-off" on the FR.

When your hearing is so lousy that it takes several dBs at low frequency that you CAN hear to differentiate level changes, not to mention that 10Hz that you only feel and the fact that most likely you don't even hear 20kHz and the JND at 16kHz is about 3 dB, this amp is FLAT!!!

So, no, if it's output impedance is very low, small fraction of an Ohm, it is flat.

 

[mtrycrafts]

These AMPS have been designed to sound a particular way. ?

Yes, but that should show up in the specs.
And, if those amps have their own sound, how will you ever match it with any other component that will be what one likes? Next to impossible if that all have their own sound. And, historically, DBTs would have reflected this in a larger number than it has.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I understand what the OP was asking. My goal here is for others and potential new folks to understand that there are many solid quality amps that don't cost in the range of Krell/SunFire/McIntosh etc... that will be within a splitting of the hair difference in sound and a world of difference in price.
.

Exactly correct. But, ones imagination usually gets in the way of things

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think the Onkyo Amps are the WARMEST amps of all.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

 

[jamie2112]

I find the Onkyo's totally HOT dude......thats better than warm isn't it?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I find the Onkyo's totally HOT dude......thats better than warm isn't it?

Yeah, Onkyo amps are SOOOOOOOOOO HOT!!!!!!

They are on FIRE!!!!!!

I feel sweaty just thinking about Onkyos.

NOTE: Just Kidding. Onkyos are great sounding amps w/ awesome specs and power.